Move Your Feet

[William Draven]

The only problem I have with that kind of statement Brad is I feel it gives people the license to be a justifiable ass hole.

I agree with you, so much as the person who uses their honesty is mature enough to know how to handle it, and I don't mean to imply that Chris isn't, but there seems to be a rash of these "Facts are this, either deal with it, or stop crying" kind of people is startling.

I've seen these kind of blow hards before in sales and marketing. Some of them have some good points, others just like to stroke their own ego.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this so I'm going to cut this post off here, and expand upon it more when I have a clearer vision.

 

[worldwideme]

be human, dont be a grade a butt-hole just because you can. just live up to society's rules of how to behave.





and if you are a christian like myself, be a christian. they'll know us by our love.

 

[James Smith]

Actually I'm not so concered with the politics as I want to know what someone is saying with that particular heading.

I say everyone has a choice of whether they want to share their knowledge. If they do, great. If not, okay. Personally, I have no problem helping fellow magicians, but I only do so if I think they are actually serious about the art.

DaveyG, it's more out of curiosity really. I don't care about the politics of magic much at all, but I'm just curious as to what the article said.


Cheers

Alright, fair enough, I get curious with such things as well. I still wonder why RD was banned...

 

[Brad Henderson]

The only problem I have with that kind of statement Brad is I feel it gives people the license to be a justifiable ass hole.

I agree with you, so much as the person who uses their honesty is mature enough to know how to handle it, and I don't mean to imply that Chris isn't, but there seems to be a rash of these "Facts are this, either deal with it, or stop crying" kind of people is startling.

I've seen these kind of blow hards before in sales and marketing. Some of them have some good points, others just like to stroke their own ego.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this so I'm going to cut this post off here, and expand upon it more when I have a clearer vision.

Too many magicians believe that every approach is the right approach and no opinions are better than another.

This is utter nonsense - I posted about this in another thread. It's called a performative contradiction.

More importantly though, I do not see how honesty has anything to do with someone being an *******. They either are or they aren't.

Seems to me that the easy way of avoiding listening to someone be an ******* is not to ask his or her opinion. Can't blame them for being who they are.

But even that misses the point - who cares whether or not they are a jerk - the issue is, do they have information worth listening to.

If so, lucky you. if not, then move on.

Magicians are overly sensitive.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Alright, fair enough, I get curious with such things as well. I still wonder why RD was banned...

Answer in this post:

http://forums.theory11.com/showpost.php?p=296925&postcount=12

 

[William Draven]

the point - who cares whether or not they are a jerk...

I guess I was the only one within my generation that was raised to generally try to be a good person. To observe the golden rule, and to be polite.

I don't know how some people can knowingly be jerks, and still manage to sleep at night. I can't say that I agree with that mentality.

 

[WilliamMckeehan]

I guess I was the only one within my generation that was raised to generally try to be a good person. To observe the golden rule, and to be polite.

I don't know how some people can knowingly be jerks, and still manage to sleep at night. I can't say that I agree with that mentality.

I dont see how people could be mean either. its not that hard to be nice and friendly. spread the love!

 

[KatieKenner]

I guess I was the only one within my generation that was raised to generally try to be a good person. To observe the golden rule, and to be polite.

I don't know how some people can knowingly be jerks, and still manage to sleep at night. I can't say that I agree with that mentality.

This is show business, if you have chosen this to be part of your life, you might as well get used to the jerks...

I've been called fat, ugly, awkward and "not what we're looking for" many times at dance auditions... I know I'm not any of that in everyday life, but nothing gets more mean and "jerky" than hearing that.

I think if magicians had to go through half of what another entertainer (Dancer, Musician, Actor...) had to go through, 90% of them would quit because of the "justifiable jerks."

Just a thought..

Love,

Katie

 

[William Draven]

Katie,

I'm used to dealing with jerks. Hell, I know of a certain couple of ones that frequent the magic castle that aren't going to win any humanitarian awards any time soon. I'm not going to name names, but I'm sure you know of a few yourself.

I'm not complaining about their existence, more so advocating for more observation of the golden rule.

We're all in this boat called life together, and need I remind you all that no one gets out alive? So why not try to make this trip as enjoyable for everyone else while you can right?

I'll get off my soap box now.

 

[worldwideme]

Can't blame them for being who they are.

we cant blame them, but they certainly have no excuse for being that way. check out my signature. i dont want to start a huge debate and get another thread locked because of my faith, but i wont hide it.

But even that misses the point - who cares whether or not they are a jerk - the issue is, do they have information worth listening to.

thats the secret to dealing with them. but one has to decide if the information is worth it.

 

[cm763]

I'm curious, at what point did we start assuming that Chris Kenner was a "jerk" in how he delivered his opinions to those who show him a trick?

I mean, he's the subject of this thread, in particular his line: "Don't ask if you can't handle the Effing answer. If you want to hear how great you are don't ask me to look at your trick."

I don't see how that implies he delivers his opinion in a "jerk-ish" way. It just sounds like he's honest about where the person needs some improvement, and the person just doesn't want to hear the truth. And, of course, Chris is getting to the tipping point where it's getting beyond annoying. Kind of like how so many magicians feel like they "deserve" a meet and greet with David Copperfield, and when the arrangements can't be made (or fall through), they get all whiny about it and consider Kenner a jerk because of it. Same idea, different situation.

I dunno...just seems like people are getting their panties in a bunch over a non-issue. It seems more like certain magicians need to hold a mirror up to themselves and take a good look at their own behaviour.

Personally, I would love to have Chris Kenner critique my performance. I realize that won't likely happen, but I would gladly jump at the chance were it ever possible. And I would relish every single word he said...he's been in the business for a long time with the top industry professionals (and is one himself), so I'm pretty sure he would have more than a few important tidbits to share regarding pretty much every aspect of performance (from technique to character to performance, etc). And obviously, I realize I'm not perfect. I realize not everybody gets a gold star (sadly, our school system sets people up for disappointment in this regard, pushing everyone along as if they're a superstar--I can see how that type of mindset would develop). But that is exactly why I'd like to have him critique my performance--because he can point out some important areas for improvement, and really give some good advice.

I mean, if people aren't showing Kenner a trick for that reason, then I'm confused as to why they are showing him in the first place. Just for false praise? Trying to get "discovered" (hahaha)? What ever happened to performing for intrinsic reasons (because you enjoy it), not because you're looking to be told that you're great?! What ever happened to performing for someone more knowledgeable than you, and actually heeding their advice and improving yourself from that experience (i.e., a mentor-type experience/relationship)?!

 

[scarecrow1]

Nobody is a justifiable jerk. You can't just say "Oh, there are jerks out there, so one more won't hurt anything". Why is it soooo hard to be professional, polite, and nice? Maybe because "We live in this world, so we might as well get used to jerks" all the jerks in the world are excused. Yes, people need to get used to jerks because that's life, but that still is no excuse to be a jerk.

EDIT: Not saying Chris is a jerk. Just talking about magicians being jerks in general.



Cheers

 

[Chris W]

I'm curious, at what point did we start assuming that Chris Kenner was a "jerk" in how he delivered his opinions to those who show him a trick?

I mean, he's the subject of this thread, in particular his line: "Don't ask if you can't handle the Effing answer. If you want to hear how great you are don't ask me to look at your trick."

I don't see how that implies he delivers his opinion in a "jerk-ish" way. It just sounds like he's honest about where the person needs some improvement, and the person just doesn't want to hear the truth. And, of course, Chris is getting to the tipping point where it's getting beyond annoying. Kind of like how so many magicians feel like they "deserve" a meet and greet with David Copperfield, and when the arrangements can't be made (or fall through), they get all whiny about it and consider Kenner a jerk because of it. Same idea, different situation.

I dunno...just seems like people are getting their panties in a bunch over a non-issue. It seems more like certain magicians need to hold a mirror up to themselves and take a good look at their own behaviour.

Personally, I would love to have Chris Kenner critique my performance. I realize that won't likely happen, but I would gladly jump at the chance were it ever possible. And I would relish every single word he said...he's been in the business for a long time with the top industry professionals (and is one himself), so I'm pretty sure he would have more than a few important tidbits to share regarding pretty much every aspect of performance (from technique to character to performance, etc). And obviously, I realize I'm not perfect. I realize not everybody gets a gold star (sadly, our school system sets people up for disappointment in this regard, pushing everyone along as if they're a superstar--I can see how that type of mindset would develop). But that is exactly why I'd like to have him critique my performance--because he can point out some important areas for improvement, and really give some good advice.

I mean, if people aren't showing Kenner a trick for that reason, then I'm confused as to why they are showing him in the first place. Just for false praise? Trying to get "discovered" (hahaha)? What ever happened to performing for intrinsic reasons (because you enjoy it), not because you're looking to be told that you're great?! What ever happened to performing for someone more knowledgeable than you, and actually heeding their advice and improving yourself from that experience (i.e., a mentor-type experience/relationship)?!

I agree. Again, this is a major stumbling people hit: they ask for critique and can't handle the answer, most likely due to the fact that others tell him/her they are awesome. But part of the blame needs to go to those who can't give constructive criticism in a nice way. There are ways to tell someone that they need to polish their sleights without saying that they suck and being rude in other ways. For some people, and for some reason, people can' t be nice and tell them how to improve. Doesn't make sense to me. I agree withWilliam. My background was to be nice to others. We can help out other magicians. (obviously I'm not saying Chris did or didn't do this.....we have no idea) Just making a general point.

 

[William Draven]

In Response to CM763:

Just for clarity, in case there is any doubt, I am not saying, implying, or suggesting in anyway shape or form that Chris Kenner is a jerk. I've never met the man, and can't speak for the nature of his character.