Christian Magic

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Nov 13, 2009
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Hey Guy's,

First I wan't to say "bravo" I Know I said it before and I want to say it again you guy's have kept this thing decent and civil for 7 pages and for that I am extremly grateful. We are all freinds and I respect all of you. Okay so as I was reading through this topic I found a couple of things from different people that I think their might be a misconceptions about the Bible and what we beleive so I just thought I would try to clear them up. I will give you the quotes from the people then my reply once again thank you. :)

"You know the problem with Christianity? People turn into hypocrites,"

I hear what you are saying their are alot of people who claim to be Christians but live like sinner these are hypocrites. I would be the first to admit that I make more mistakes and that I am wicked but its not that I am such a good person its that I am a very bad person saved by a very good God

"All those Gods are the same gods."

Their are alot of people who claim they know the truth and that they are right. Their are hundreds of sects out their but one of them hast to be right! Everything does not go. Either something is true or it is not and it doesn't matter what people beleive it matters what the truth is. Jesus said he was the Way the Truth and the Life no man comes to the father but through me. Jesus is the only way to avoid hell and enter Heaven

"Chances are on any given day you wouldn't want to hear that or have to deal with someone trying to convert you to atheism."

Actually I would be happy to have somone try to convert me to a beleiver in atheism it would show they cared I would then share my faith with them and reason with them scientifacly I Respect them and I would be happy to hear what they have to say thats why I have enjoyed hearing your guy's ideas and stuff. I would love to reason with believers in athiesm about the existence of God.:)

"I don't really feel like getting into the argument, but I just wanted toI cringe when I see magicians who take what they do literally (aka talking to the dead, telekenesis etc) and try to install it into their audience."

I realy want to clear this up it seems from what you guy's have said that some of you think that when we talk about gospel magic that we are claiming that we have real magical powers that is absurd I would never claim that I have real powers I always tell people it is all just a illusion. I just wanted to clarify

"clear something up. The Bible says not to judge."

I don't judge other people I am the last person to be judging I am a wretch lol I just tell them of God's judement.

"To me a real effective person that wants to invite a spiritual or faith inspired trick,can do it without quoting scripture."

If we don't use scrpture we are stumbling around in the darkness in our own opinions

"You are imposing your views and your will onto another. No one should have to deal with that."

Why not? I mean if you are a belever in atheism then if somone comes up too you and talks to you about God it would be no problem if they beleive we are wrong then they should have no problem hearing us out.

Thanks guy's for hearing me out. I have been really enjoying reading this topic and once again I appreciate you all talking like the friends we are.

I respect you all and God bless,

Christian
 
Sep 1, 2007
586
0
Cornwall
I cannot lose enough iq points to bother reading all these paragraphs from dellusionals thinking god is on a 2 way radio with them.

I will, however, list known FACTS, documented in history.

The egyptian god Horus
dated around 2000 BC
-born of a virgin
-father was a wood worker
-3 men gave him gifts on his birth
-was baptized in a river
- the baptist was later beheaded
- was called the son of god, the lamb, prophet etc
-birthday was december 25th (infact nearly all ancient gods had this birthday, to celebrate the solstice)
-could walk on water, heal the sick, raised Azrus from the dead (Azrus translates into Lazarus)
- was crucified
- buried in a tomb, when 3 days later 3 women found the tomb empty, and he appeared to them.

dont forget, this is just the story of Horus
other interesting things from the Egyptian beliefs- a prophet named Mises (yes Mises, not Moses) was given 10 commandments (9 of which are almost word for word with the christian ones)

sigh i could go on and on.

This is my problem, people who believe without doing any actual research. Once you open your mind, and start to dig deep on this issue, you can see its nothing but stories passed down from the ages.

Being muslim, christian, morman etc, it isnt a choice. Chances are you are born into it, your parents are of a faith, and so you are too. Children are never given the choice, they are raised and from day 1 this stuff is pounded into their heads, thus they know nothing else, and will deny anything that opposes their "beliefs".
 

wZEnigma

Elite Member
Jun 17, 2009
1,511
153
NE Ohio.
ianchandlerwriting.com
I cannot lose enough iq points to bother reading all these paragraphs from dellusionals thinking god is on a 2 way radio with them.

I will, however, list known FACTS, documented in history.

The egyptian god Horus
dated around 2000 BC
-born of a virgin
-father was a wood worker
-3 men gave him gifts on his birth
-was baptized in a river
- the baptist was later beheaded
- was called the son of god, the lamb, prophet etc
-birthday was december 25th (infact nearly all ancient gods had this birthday, to celebrate the solstice)
-could walk on water, heal the sick, raised Azrus from the dead (Azrus translates into Lazarus)
- was crucified
- buried in a tomb, when 3 days later 3 women found the tomb empty, and he appeared to them.

dont forget, this is just the story of Horus
other interesting things from the Egyptian beliefs- a prophet named Mises (yes Mises, not Moses) was given 10 commandments (9 of which are almost word for word with the christian ones)

sigh i could go on and on.

This is my problem, people who believe without doing any actual research. Once you open your mind, and start to dig deep on this issue, you can see its nothing but stories passed down from the ages.

Being muslim, christian, morman etc, it isnt a choice. Chances are you are born into it, your parents are of a faith, and so you are too. Children are never given the choice, they are raised and from day 1 this stuff is pounded into their heads, thus they know nothing else, and will deny anything that opposes their "beliefs".

This thread has closed written all over it now.

This is a magic forum, guys.

Ian
 
I cannot lose enough iq points to bother reading all these paragraphs from dellusionals thinking god is on a 2 way radio with them.

I will, however, list known FACTS, documented in history.

The egyptian god Horus
dated around 2000 BC
-born of a virgin
-father was a wood worker
-3 men gave him gifts on his birth
-was baptized in a river
- the baptist was later beheaded
- was called the son of god, the lamb, prophet etc
-birthday was december 25th (infact nearly all ancient gods had this birthday, to celebrate the solstice)
-could walk on water, heal the sick, raised Azrus from the dead (Azrus translates into Lazarus)
- was crucified
- buried in a tomb, when 3 days later 3 women found the tomb empty, and he appeared to them.

dont forget, this is just the story of Horus
other interesting things from the Egyptian beliefs- a prophet named Mises (yes Mises, not Moses) was given 10 commandments (9 of which are almost word for word with the christian ones)

sigh i could go on and on.

This is my problem, people who believe without doing any actual research. Once you open your mind, and start to dig deep on this issue, you can see its nothing but stories passed down from the ages.

Being muslim, christian, morman etc, it isnt a choice. Chances are you are born into it, your parents are of a faith, and so you are too. Children are never given the choice, they are raised and from day 1 this stuff is pounded into their heads, thus they know nothing else, and will deny anything that opposes their "beliefs".

Arggg, I had this ready for my next post along with some other "gods." Watch the movie with Bill Maher talk about religion, I believe it's called Religulous. It talks about all the sorts of religion and how misguided people are into believing it. If you really do all your research and still believe then you are an fool, but if you just follow because it was from birth and adults abused their power of manipulation then you are just misguided.

I could ask you questions and defend only a few things. However you would most likely say the rest is just faith. Well I'm pretty sure people say that because there is no answer and it's easier to say something that is disproved with the simple answer of faith.

I'm not putting anybody down, I'm putting religion down in every way shape and form. Mormons and scientology are the two dumbest religions ever conceived of. God is actually a man on some planet or asteroid or w/e and got someone pregnant through some mystical way. Read up on your religion
and all the bad things that are done in the name of God because he said so.

The old testament is apparently when God had a nasty migraine and just shot lightning at everybody and killing every which way. Then the new testament is written by believers of God who then fulfill the so called "prophecies" and is filled with a caring and loving God because he took some Valium.

So..... should this thread be closed, based on the idea of it no longer being about magic then yes. However it's being kept civil for the most part and should be shown as a test for a decent level of maturity from the people
 
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Jul 13, 2009
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Jesus Fing loving Christ,

This thread was about gosepel magic, not GOSPEL AND RELIGION.



I guess its true, two things you should never bring up in conversation. Politics and Religion.
 
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Sep 1, 2007
586
0
Cornwall
I have 2 restraining orders against me, because of articles and statements i made in our towns newspaper over the past several years because of religion.

One is my old catholic highschool, other is a family's house, who got so offended they tried sueing me....

This is why I support war, usually its because of 1 invisible man vs another, the less religious idiots there are in the world, the happier i become.
 

Justin.Morris

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
2,793
888
Canada
www.morrismagic.ca
Sigh, it was good while it lasted.

Don't forget that you can't always believe everything you watch in a movie;)

Now at Theory 11, they are trying to foster a community of respect. Phenomena, I've reported a number of your posts because of your constant insults. Please refrain from working against what so many are trying to build and respect. Your posts go much farther than sharing your opinion, to tearing others down. People have been banned for much less.

Even Barry and Stewart approach this topic with respect (and they do not believe as far as I know). If you want to debate religion, head somewhere else. If you want to discuss some more ideas of how to incorporate magic and faith, then share some ideas. But don't come here swinging and expect to be adding to the art of magic or the magic community at large.
 
Jun 5, 2009
23
0
Seattle, WA
It is disingenuous at best to complain about people arguing about religion when you brought the subject up. If I wanted advice on how to use magic to spread the good truth about the pure NAMBLA love that men and boys can share together, that would warrant a discussion about whether pedophilia is something that really should "come up" during a magic performance.

To us hell-bound non-believers, it is not only curious why you would use cheap slight of hand and trickery to spread the word of your god. Is this not some form of idolatry? I am not saying that it is not rational to be a theist and a magician - only that it seems quite dishonest to deceive people while preaching to them.

Again, no offense meant, but if you talk to some heavy metal or punk kids about how to co-opt their music into gospel, they would be far less civil than this thread has been. There have been roughly equal parts "everyone is going to hell" and "religious folks are high functioning retards," so I would just call it a day.
 
As usual with these kinds of threads, there is always someone without the maturity to handle the discussion in a fair, non biased, and intelectual mannor while still being engaging and constructive in both viewpoint and subject matter.

This thread has been reported. May it rest in peace.
 
Oct 12, 2009
286
0
Navarre, Florida
I just wanted to say to "Team Agnostic/Atheist" I'm on your side if anything as I'm agnostic but this isn't the Christianity vs Atheism thread. I gotta say "Team Christian" as a whole was definitely the bigger man (and woman? Didn't do a gender check...) about this whole thing. Way to make us look bad Christians lol.

I'm sure at some base level we're all good people and just want hugs and pizza and cold drinks and light sabers and cute girls that smell good to give us hugs and stuff. Beyond that, we can all agree that magic is good right?

So I propose we focus more on what we got in common instead of all the things that are different.


PS. INCESSANTLY ARGUING AND TRYING TO CONVERT ONE ANOTHER IS NOT GOING TO MAKE YOUR MAGIC ANY BETTER.
 

Orb

Jul 19, 2009
84
0
Sweden
Again, no offense meant, but if you talk to some heavy metal or punk kids about how to co-opt their music into gospel, they would be far less civil than this thread has been.
I've heard some really stupid and offensive things in this thread so far, sorry Phenomena but from one atheist to another, neither your manners or arguments seem to last. But this one comment takes the price. I recently made a documentary about common stereotypical beliefs like yours, that heavy metalists would be any less civil than anyone else. I don't know which views you have of me but I listen to the heaviest music you could imagine, and also jazz, country, and all other forms of art.

Sorry mate but you really triggered me to comment there, your stereotypical judgment is indeed extremely foolish. Heavy metalists aren't satanists, hell even black metalists in 80% of the cases aren't even satanists. It's no less of a fictional entertainment because it's music, than it would have been if it was a Stephen King movie.

Other than that, Sherlock and Phenomena, I know you have stuff to add and comment on, but the more harsh you get the less points you score, and you're also getting this topic locked, which could be an interesting debate, even if it's in a magic forum (I really don't see why they don't have a off-topic forum for these kind of discussions). Remember, your facts of historical events are merely theories, seen how many new theories there has been on the shape and size of dinosaurs lately? They're all theories.

If you want to argue well, bring up the points of why you see science beating Christianity, one of them has been updating itself through the years, one hasn't. How can you take advantage of that?

Throughout the course of history, religion has been used as a power tool (this is undeniable) in many events. How do you bring that point to your side?

Man up guys, they're just another couple of guys with different world views than us, bottom line is that they get what they want, hope. And who is anyone to say that hope is false? Is there even false hope? Hope still remains, hope.
 
Feb 28, 2008
354
8
The way I think of this is, just like all of us, as performers we're trying to find our own personal performing style and yours would be of a Christian magician.

I'm a Catholic Teachers and have sometimes brought magic into the classroom... teaching more so life lessons and morals through metaphors within tricks (I know, seems kind of cheesy, but it was quite successful).

My whole thing is to take the idea of "Wonder & Awe" just relate to God and morals.

There's this really good cups and balls I saw once where the patter was just so perfect for what you're talking about but I can't seem to find it on Youtube.
 
Sep 1, 2007
586
0
Cornwall
Sorry, but I am far beyond the point of caring if I come across to harsh or not. If you have seen what I've seen, and know what I know, you wouldnt be all jolly and laughter when it comes to this subject.

I am truely disgusted that my way of life is controlled by MEN with schizophrenia.
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
1
33
Grand prairie TX
Sorry, but I am far beyond the point of caring if I come across to harsh or not. If you have seen what I've seen, and know what I know, you wouldnt be all jolly and laughter when it comes to this subject.

I am truely disgusted that my way of life is controlled by MEN with schizophrenia.

Spoken like a true,emotionally unstable,"I am superman","I know everything and you dont, teenager.

Im glad I never was one.
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
1
33
Grand prairie TX
I cannot lose enough iq points to bother reading all these paragraphs from dellusionals thinking god is on a 2 way radio with them.

I will, however, list known FACTS, documented in history.

The egyptian god Horus
dated around 2000 BC
-born of a virgin
-father was a wood worker
-3 men gave him gifts on his birth
-was baptized in a river
- the baptist was later beheaded
- was called the son of god, the lamb, prophet etc
-birthday was december 25th (infact nearly all ancient gods had this birthday, to celebrate the solstice)
-could walk on water, heal the sick, raised Azrus from the dead (Azrus translates into Lazarus)
- was crucified
- buried in a tomb, when 3 days later 3 women found the tomb empty, and he appeared to them.

dont forget, this is just the story of Horus
other interesting things from the Egyptian beliefs- a prophet named Mises (yes Mises, not Moses) was given 10 commandments (9 of which are almost word for word with the christian ones)

sigh i could go on and on.

This is my problem, people who believe without doing any actual research. Once you open your mind, and start to dig deep on this issue, you can see its nothing but stories passed down from the ages.

Being muslim, christian, morman etc, it isnt a choice. Chances are you are born into it, your parents are of a faith, and so you are too. Children are never given the choice, they are raised and from day 1 this stuff is pounded into their heads, thus they know nothing else, and will deny anything that opposes their "beliefs".
I read that story when I was 14! awesome that someone knows what it is.

Jesus christ wasnt born Dec.25. He was born around may(its in the bible). The holiday was switched around to make any possible conversions non-confusing.

You do know that alot of the stories of the bible take place in egypt right?
Is it such a suprise that jesus and god are in egypts own history? AR DURR DURR
Jesus christ himself has been portrayed in many other religions,most notably muslim. The settings and skin color might be different but the story is always the same. They all believe in the same damn god.There is only one god. What you name him is irrelevant.
Btw there is no actual record of horus walking on water.Where are your sources?
There is no truth. Just what you believe. As always.
There are some that are a bit more researched than I am and come up with some conclusions that I will post. Frankly I dont care. It always comes full circle.


Claim #1-Horus and Jesus are born from a virgin.

Horus’s mother is Isis. Isis was married to Osiris. We do not know for what length of time, but presumably the marriage was consummated. Whether it was or wasn’t doesn’t matter though. After Osiris is killed, Isis puts him back together again (he was hacked into 14 pieces) except for his penis which was tossed in a river or a lake. Iris fashions a substitute penis for him, humps him and here comes Horus. There is nothing virginal about that.

Claim #2-Both Horus and Jesus were born to a Mary and Joseph. (Seb)

As noted Isis is Horus’s mother’s name not Mary. In addition, Seb is not Horus’s father, Osiris is. Seb is Osiris’s father. Further, Seb is a distinct name from Joseph. Putting them side by side does not make them synonyms, and that appears to be what was done here.

Claim #3-Both were born of royal descent.

This is accurate.

Claim #4-Both births were announced by angels and witnessed by shepherds.

I can find nothing that mentions that the birth of Horus was announced by an angel or witnessed by shepherds. I have found that Horus was born in a swamp, which is a pretty unlikely place for shepherds. In addition Acharya mentions that Horus was born in a cave. Massey makes no mention of this, although he does represent that Mithra was born in a cave.

Claim #5-Both were heralded by stars and angels.

There is no star that heralded Horus’s birth nor is there any angel announcing it. Archarya in a footnote in The Origins of Christianity indicates that that there are three stars named the three kings in Orion and then relates this to the birth of Jesus. When we look to the stories regarding Horus, we find no star or angel announcing his birth. To the extent that Acharya S relies upon Massey and Massey relies upon what is depicted in the panels at Luxor see (from an atheist) further regarding virgin birth and pronouncement by angels http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/carrier_luxor_inscription.htm

Claim #6-Both had later visitors (Horus-3 deities and Jesus-3 wisemen.)

There is no indication that there ever were 3 wisemen. The bible never mentions the number of wisemen, nor is there any document that reflects 3 deities at the birth of Horus. See the website referenced in Claim #5.

Claim #7-Both had murder plots against them.

There is mention that Seth did want to kill Horus, and Herod wanted to kill Jesus. so this is accurate.

Claim#8-Both came of age at 12, were baptized and their baptizers were executed.

There is no indication that Horus was preaching in a temple when he was 12. In fact, Massey indicates that Hours the child was depicted as a “weakling.” That doesn’t jive with story of Jesus preaching in the temple. Again this appears to have been a confabulation from Acharya and repeated by others.

Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus stories. In addition, Acharya mentions that John the Baptist is actually Anup the Baptizer. This individual is never mentioned anywhere in any Horus account. There is not even a footnote in Archaya’s on-line work The Origins of Christianity to support this. There is nothing.

Claim #9-Both had 12 disciples.

According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers. There is some indication of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him. Horus did not have 12 disciples. Jesus reportedly did. Acharya failed to give a footnote to support this.

Massey points to a mural in the Book of Hades in which there are twelve reapers. Horus is not present in this scene. For Massey to make this connection he goes to a different scene within the same mural. In this scene there is a picture of a god whose name is the Master of Joy. Horus is never depicted although in other murals the artists do depict Horus. Had the artists ascribed 12 reapers in any relation to Horus all they had to do was put Horus at the scene. They did not.

Claim #10-Both walked on water.

Horus didn’t, or at least there is no record that I can find that he did. Massey does not maintain that Hours did. Massey uses wild conjecture to connect the story of fish man, Oannes, not Horus, to Jesus. Oannes came out of the sea during the day, and went back into the sea at night. Massey makes the two analogous because by his calculations, Jesus walked on water during the day.

As to Acharya, she as usual provides nothing to substantiate this.

Claim #11-Both performed miracles.

This is true although the miracles were different in scope and nature.

Claim #12 Both exorcised demons and raised Lazarus.

The actual claim is that Horus raised Osiris from the dead and that the name Osiris morphed to Lazarus. It doesn’t matter because Horus did not bring Osiris back to life. There is no mention of this in any document regarding the story. Horus did avenge Osiris’s death, but that did not raise Osiris from the dead.

Claim #13-Both held a Sermon on the Mount; both were transfigured on a mountain, died by crucifixion along with two thieves and were buried in tombs where they paid a quick visit to Hell and then rose from the dead after 3 days time, both resurrections were witness by women, and both will supposedly reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.

These are the most damning claims if they were proven true in my opinion. Yet, I can locate none of this. No sermon, no transfiguration, certainly no crucifixion w/ two thieves, no trip to hell and no resurrection. There was an incident in which Horus was torn to pieces and Iris requested the crocodile god to fish him out of the water he was tossed into, which was done, but that’s it. I am at a loss to refute this because I can not find anything to support it.

Massey does compares a story about the Autumn Equinox related to Osiris, not Horus, as the symbolic crucifixion. There is no indication that Horus is involved in any way. There is no mention by Massey of any Sermon on the Mount. No mention or any actual crucifixion, no two thieves, no burial in a tomb. Massey does not maintain that anything of the sort occurred with Horus.

In short, of the claims outlined in this entry, I find the comparison between Horus and Jesus to consist of the following: they were of royal descent, they allegedly worked miracles and there were murder plots against them.
 
Jul 13, 2009
1,372
0
33
It is disingenuous at best to complain about people arguing about religion when you brought the subject up.

For the love of god,


He brought up gospel magic, it is a legitimate for of magic. Why are people jumping to conclusions that gospel magic is automatically preaching?

Furthermore I read someone who brought up a discussion about people talking about metal, and associating them with Satan and less then you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxX19_QAWbw

Guess I am satanic.

Truly I believe that certain members and you know who you are, have brought to much personal prejudice into this thread and turned it into a s*** hole that not even this devil dog wants to go near anymore.

To the OP sorry I couldn't better help you, to many people, who really do not know what they are talking about has jumped and made this thread worthless.
 
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