Get Off Your High Horse...

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Sep 1, 2007
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Simple solution - report the post(s) and ignore them. They'll be taken care of. When you respond to the madness, it only creates more chaos.

Thank you for proving me right by not addressing my point in the slightest.

Steerpike get's off on adding fuel to fire because he generally often has nothing better to do in life.

If that's the best you can do, you're not very imaginative.

I choose to be different here because it soon became apparent that being nice is seen as a sign of weakness, and the weak get trampled under the stampedes of cattle lining up to [EDITED - Inappropriate]

Some people are just too nice to useful. And I would rather be hated than be useless. You all can talk a big game about the right way to give constructive criticism, but my experience has been that when you get it the way you want it you just disregard it or never take it to heart. You know I'm right. What incentive do you have to improve when you already have someone's approval?
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Just around
Thank you for proving me right by not addressing my point in the slightest.
Whether he didn't address you point or not doesn't matter, what matters is that he's right in what he said.


And I choose to be different here because it soon became apparent that being nice is seen as a sign of weakness, and the weak get trampled under the stampedes of cattle lining up to...
Funny, I remain constructive and polite and that has never happened to me. Huh...weird.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Whether he didn't address you point or not doesn't matter, what matters is that he's right in what he said.

I did report the posts. And yet it doesn't change the fact that he didn't see the idiotic behavior as the problem. No, it was the naughty words. Am I the only person in the world who thinks that stupidity is more offensive than a word?

Funny, I remain constructive and polite and that has never happened to me. Huh...weird.

And I don't find you particularly useful either. Funny how that works.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Just around
And I don't find you particularly useful either. Funny how that works.

To each there own, but I provide constructive criticism for people and I actually am helpful. You only see me in an argument with you, and of course your on your own side, so you see me as an obstacle. But whatever, I really don't care what my standing is in your eyes.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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You only see me in an argument with you, and of course your on your own side, so you see me as an obstacle.

I'm on my own side because if I learned one thing watching artistic communities, it's a mistake to take sides.

Anyway, I don't see anyone rushing to contradict my point that if you're too nice people just blow you off. I tried being nice to magicians, and then I realized that we're all *******s. I give advice and critique, but if someone wants my respect, it has to be earned.
 

j.bayme

ceo / theory11
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Jul 23, 2007
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I'm on my own side because if I learned one thing watching artistic communities, it's a mistake to take sides.

Anyway, I don't see anyone rushing to contradict my point that if you're too nice people just blow you off. I tried being nice to magicians, and then I realized that we're all *******s. I give advice and critique, but if someone wants my respect, it has to be earned.

Steerpike,

I will gladly be the one to do so. There's a fine between spirited debate, and blatant disrespect and unprofessional conduct. You cross it very often. You're very good at it. That's not a compliment.

If one really wants to be taken seriously in life and in art and in business, you are correct that blind allegiance will not lead too far. But contempt and blind negativity won't even get you on the road. I am no scholar, I am no PHD, I am no scientist, nor psychologist. But I have worked hard and can say with due humility and confidence that I can credit a few things to contributing to any success I have had thus far.

1. Professionalism. Since I was 13 years old in creating and posting on the Ellusionist forums, I made sure that every interaction between myself and others within this industry was done in a professional manner. I made sure that if I posted my opinion on something, it was done in good faith and positive, constructive spirit - backed up by whatever my rationale, right or wrong, was at the time. I posted under my real name. My reputation mattered. Professionalism is key to that pursuit, which goes along with my next point.

2. Respect. I was lucky from the time I was very young to have friends far smarter, more accomplished, and far older than I. It was intentional, as I knew that in order for myself to grow and advance, I must first learn from those with the experience, expertise, and wisdom that I hoped and still hope to one day attain. I first met Chris Kenner at a Copperfield show in my hometown when I was 12 or 13. I used to stay up until 3:00am every night just in case he called me on his way back home from the MGM Grand in Las Vegas following a Copperfield show. I would always pretend like I was already awake. I usually wasn't. Respect. I treated every word of advice and counsel he gave me as golden. I was privileged to have it. But even now, especially now, and calling guys like Chris and Jason and Apollo and Dan and Dave as close friends - I still hold that same respect.

That respect does not only fall to those who are already accomplished, awarded, or applauded. Often I stay up an hour later at night writing members back Private Messages as often as I can. I don't get to all of them. I'm only one guy, and our crew is extremely busy - particularly right now with Magic-Con next week. But at least twice a week, I find myself typing paragraph after paragraph of my responses - whatever their worth - to magicians that write me asking about how to get into theater performances, how to make it in magic, how to create, or anything else. And I don't do it just because I like to think of myself as a good guy. I do it because I RESPECT the members within this community. I am one of those members, no greater. And as long as they respect the artform, as long as they are positive and pure of intent, then they will get my respect in return.

3. Passion. Rarely is anything provided to anyone in this world on a silver platter. Success in any field comes from passion, determination, and dedication. You have to want it. And you have to be willing to work for it. If you're willing to do that - and actions speak louder than words - then you're going to make waves. Growing up, when people told me that it was comical for me to do my first theater show in a room of 500 seats with not a dime of advertising budget, I was stubborn. I was 101% naive. But I knew I would do whatever it took to make that happen. And I worked really hard. And I didn't sleep much for a few months. But I made it happen.

I'll leave this post with one thing. Perhaps my favorite quote of the past year. It was from Conan O'Brien's last episode of the Tonight Show. They are words to live by, and I try to remind myself of it every single day.

"All I ask of you, especially young people...is one thing. Please don't be cynical. I hate cynicism -- it's my least favorite quality and it doesn't lead anywhere. Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get. But if you work really hard and you're kind, amazing things will happen. I'm telling you, amazing things will happen."
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
I'm on my own side because if I learned one thing watching artistic communities, it's a mistake to take sides.

Anyway, I don't see anyone rushing to contradict my point that if you're too nice people just blow you off. I tried being nice to magicians, and then I realized that we're all *******s. I give advice and critique, but if someone wants my respect, it has to be earned.

Respect is a two way street. If you want them to respect you, you have to also respect them as well.
 
Aug 10, 2008
2,023
2
33
In a rock concert
Often I stay up an hour later at night writing members back Private Messages as often as I can. I don't get to all of them. I'm only one guy, and our crew is extremely busy - particularly right now with Magic-Con next week. But at least twice a week, I find myself typing paragraph after paragraph of my responses - whatever their worth - to magicians that write me asking about how to get into theater performances, how to make it in magic, how to create, or anything else. And I don't do it just because I like to think of myself as a good guy. I do it because I RESPECT the members within this community. I am one of those members, no greater. And as long as they respect the artform, as long as they are positive and pure of intent, then they will get my respect in return.

Funny that you mention it, some months ago I began a little talk with you via PM ( Wich I had to make public because you stop bothering), talking about the really bad state in wich the forums were (and are) at the moment. You showed some interest at the beggining but then you just decided to ignore me. And the guys that send you Pm's regarding the subject along with me (wich were a few).


I was going to send this via PM, but then I remembered how you simply don't bother yourself with this stuff.

Go ahead, delete this comment as you have deleted several other's that I have made.

I will post it again :).
 

j.bayme

ceo / theory11
Team member
Jul 23, 2007
2,848
352
New York City
RDChopper,

The primary problem I see in these forums - really the only one that comes to mind - is posts exactly like yours. Read my post again, particularly the part about respect. Then read the part where I mentioned that I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the time to respond to every single private message and email I receive. If I did, we would never get anything done. Between Magic-Con and filming and editing and meetings, I have a hard enough time finding the hours to sleep. These probably don't help.

But I certainly try my damndest whenever I can, and I certainly read every message that I get. Our team is very easy to get in touch with. Our support team is there to make sure all urgent issues are attended to. Jon Raiker is always here to make sure the forums are in proper order (you can always send him a message day or night). We also have a phone number. And we all post under our actual names.

Respect, as Randy mentioned in his post, is truly a two way street. Your post shows a complete lack of it, but I will respond with full respect to you. Treat others the way you would want to be treated and spoken to. Stay positive. Always be respectful. And good things will come.
 
Aug 10, 2008
2,023
2
33
In a rock concert
But I certainly try my damndest whenever I can, and I certainly read every message that I get. Our team is very easy to get in touch with. Our support team is there to make sure all urgent issues are attended to. Jon Raiker is always here to make sure the forums are in proper order (you can always send him a message day or night). We also have a phone number. And we all post under our actual names.

I think that after several Pm's (not only mine) we could at least expect a response. We waited for a long time.

Respect, as Randy mentioned in his post, is truly a two way street. Your post shows a complete lack of it, but I will respond with full respect to you. Treat others the way you would want to be treated and spoken to. Stay positive. Always be respectful. And good things will come.

I agree with Randy completely but I would like to add a little something else to it.

Respect is earned.
 

j.bayme

ceo / theory11
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Jul 23, 2007
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Respect is earned.

I'll let your own words act as my response. Respect is earned. What have you done lately to earn it?

Be kind. Be professional. Be respectful. In time, you'll realize that it counts. I think it's worked out pretty well for Conan. If you treat people with respect, if you are professional even when it's hard to be, if you stay positive even in the face of certain doubts, and if you are kind even when it's inconvenient, then karma will be kind to you.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
There's a fine between spirited debate, and blatant disrespect and unprofessional conduct. You cross it very often. You're very good at it. That's not a compliment.

Well, dur. I may be an egotist, but I'm not stupid.

When appropriate I can smile through my teeth. But at the same time I don't see most people being positive. They just learn how to put a cutesy mask over their dark thoughts. Positivity is not an attribute they truly possess, but an affectation. That sort of duplicity bothers me. It's not restraint. It's being manipulative.

In regards to professionalism, I'm not being paid to be here as you know. I'm here of my own free will and owe no one anything personally. I conduct myself in the manner I think will actually get something done. Whether or not someone ends up agreeing with me is largely irrelevant. As long as they actually got themselves to think for even a nanosecond I consider that a small success.

"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you."
Don Marquis

In talk of respect, you can tell me it's a two-way street until you're blue in the face. And it is technically true, but there is something I think you're forgetting. Specifically, it is that people do not value what they acquire without earning it. I am here to help, but not at the expense of my time and dignity helping some selfish brat who's going to take my advice and wipe his ass with it.

Everyone remember Lamont McGee? Looking back, I regret having wasted as much time on him as I did. I tried to help him and he kept blowing me off. I came to realize that this is the norm. Most people are not willing to do what it takes to be good at anything. Trying to help them is a waste of my time because I'm not qualified to fix them. I'm not a therapist. I'm a starving artist with a messiah complex. That qualifies me to busk and... not much else.

And this brings me to passion. Myself and others are frustrated because we see no benefit to our contributions. Most of us get paid lip service and then the articles, essays, and discussions we try so hard to keep going slip off the first page, never to be heard from again while another thread about Criss Angel gets pages into the double digits.

Take a look at this thread. Multiple pages of inane, pointless babbling that has nothing to do with anything that practically stabbed Will's message in the womb with a clothes hanger. They took a sledgehammer to the potential for discussion in this thread. And yet... I'm the bad guy. Because I said naughty words. Never mind the fact that I respect him. Yeah, you heard me. I know the two of us seldom get along, but I regard Will with respect because damn it, he earned it! Through our arguments, he showed intelligence and experience, and I put a high value on that.

I'm not asking for sympathy. I don't want it. Not like this. But I do want to point out that this is symptomatic of why I and others feel like our opinions don't matter around here.
 

Justin.Morris

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
2,793
888
Canada
www.morrismagic.ca
This thread is pretty disgusting. If you don't like this place, I say check out.

Will made a great post (and much needed), and this became the example of what he was talking about.

Jon and Bayme have showed some grace, respect, and professionalism and they get pissed on for it.

Give me a break. Some of you sound like you want a forum moderated by your mothers who will coddle every request and concern you have, and others of you don't follow your own advice.

In my opinion, the mods would be well within their right to shut this thread down. (even knowing that some of you will whine about it, have a fit, and pm the mods venting about how they should put up with this garbage.

The staff here won't stoop down to the level of childishness displayed in this thread. They will continue to show respect as it is deserved and grace to those who should be kicked out of here.

Take your own advice.
 

j.bayme

ceo / theory11
Team member
Jul 23, 2007
2,848
352
New York City
Guys,

This thread has beyond run it's course, and Will's original point has been made and demonstrated on both sides of the aisle. To the minority, disrespect and blind negativity will not be tolerated in this forum any more than they are tolerated in the real world. Consider this message a call to action to find out how to post in a positive, professional manner - or find another place to post. The choice is yours.

To the majority, I stand with Will and Randy and Justin when I say that respect, a positive attitude, and a professional demeanor will propel you far in whatever direction you wish your life to take. If you have unshakable passion, if you have respect for those around you, and if you are kind - you will succeed. And you'll make a few friends in the process.
 
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