How do you Present 'Magic'?

[Morgan B]

Wow...I thought you had hope Sinful07...I bet Doug wishes he didn’t share a similar user name as you.

In one post, you went from a guy that just didn’t realize the mistakes he was making can lead to poor magic and poor reactions forever – as amateurs gloat over successes and pro’s worry over mistakes – to a guy that revealed some really low brow objectives. You may appreciate magic...but you don’t respect it or yourself, enough to want to improve at it, or you would take my advice more to heart. I wrote PM me if you had any questions; please consider that off the table, as I have nothing to offer someone that is so immature in thinking.

You last post educated the forum on your ignorance of treating women like a “flourish” and your chauvinistic approach to them as a “business orientation” – it also informed us that you don’t want to be identified as a magician...which I REALLY appreciate, but because you are in a magic forum and do magic, that will be a hard title to escape, but not as hard as womanizer or creep if you keep going with what you are doing. If you honestly think hiding behind mediocre magic is the equivalent to being talented at sports or other art forms.

I am very sorry that I mistook you for someone that wanted to improve, take their magic to a level where people can enjoy it...and be considered great for unselfish reasons. Believe me, when you are great at something, there is no focus on “PuA” because people will want to pick you up.

Paint by numbers students don’t go around painting portraits of people, they paint for themselves...you are going out and selling your poor quality magic as a way to meet girls – keep hiding behind the deck, it will serve you well...especially if all you said in this post reveals your character. I would rather see a botched card trick as well. By the way – there are no “paint by numbers” students...as the concept of paint by numbers can be done by the most obtuse, although, after reading your thoughts...I may be wrong.

Since this is a forum – my “preaching” will serve to educate those that DO care about magic...hobbyist or not – as I have received many PM’s praising me for calling you on something that you should be calling yourself on. Again, every post you make does not serve you well Sinful07 – if I were you, I would look in the mirror and realize that you are probably...deep down...a good enough guy that you don’t need to hide behind magic to meet women. That being said, if you can’t put down lady magic...you love her...and if you love her...treat her well. Right now, I feel like you are treating her like the women you are trying to pick up...a piece of meat, and honestly, you can treat your ladies any way you want...but magic is my lady too and my words come from a protective love for something that has opened the door to meeting friends, women, jobs, and experiences that would have not happened if I did not love and treat lady magic so well. If your mind won’t be changed on how you handle her...I don’t think I can be your friend or respect you – so it may be best if you don’t write anymore. Good luck on your empty journey, as I am old enough to see where your path leads in magic...I won’t have to tolerate you long.

 

[Sinful07]

*sigh*

There are other things besides Magic Morgician. I dont think you're englightened with that fact.

And no, you have misunderstood me again. I dont go to girls, show them a trick and ask for their number- instead i talk to them, and if they're decent enough, i'll show them a bit of 'what i do' for entertainment purposes.


It pains me to read that someone like you is so stubborn to accept the fact that i believe magic to be used as a 'tool' sometimes and not some 'Godly-required-skill-to-flawlessly-perfect'.

I'll say it once, and i'll say it again, and please bear this in mind the next time you post with regards to my 'poor performances'.

Im a Hobbyist. If i wanted to take magic to a proffessional level, one that i would consider making money out of, then i'd be a bit more complasant about your comments.

I respect your belief towards magic, how it is an art, however i do expect you to do the same, and that is to respect my personal perspective on how magic is to me.


To get respect, you have to earn it. and frankly saying that 'i had no hope' doesnt really show maturity.

Sure, i have no hope. Good for me eh? What achievement does that give you? Sorry, should i put down a deck of cards because someone from halfway across the globe (Give or take) Said that im hopeless because i dont 'appreciate the art' ?

Pardon, But the last time i check, i cheered blaine on even though his fans boo'ed the **** outta him cause of his endurance stunts. i frankly didnt even care about the stunt, i cared more about the magic presented beforehand.


People like you, who is equipped with a high level of vocabulary should know better. you're probably Very educated, but then again, your personality Sucks. I would ask how many times you got laid before- but then again, that'd be personal. and i wouldnt want it to be that way, unlike you.

This isnt a case of "oh, im better than you morgician" cause frankly, i do think you're better than me, and there is no way in hell that you should think otherwise.

You're probably better than me in magic, Presentation, Patter, and overall smoothness in sleight of hand.

So what though? does it actually matter? To me it doesnt. Im probably better than you in a lot of things anyways, things besides magic. if you wanted me to list my achievements, then i'll do so at your request. Unlike you, I have my ways of Showing value instead of rambling on an internet forum saying "how better i am than amateurs" then following up with a "You should see this in this perspective, and you should act this way"

For a seemingly smart person, You're very arrogant, and would always want things to view things your way. If i was to buy your book, i'd read page one and give it to charity. Your Ego will get you nowhere.

Remember, Hobbyist. Not Proffessional.


Edit:

here's the website for the attraction forums that im talking about. the 'pua' realm.

http://www.theattractionforums.com/forum/index.php

The material there has been tried and tested, so if you're gonna moan about how its all 'staged' and fake, think again, cause ive personally tried and tested this. and if you're going to specifically look into PuA, look for Mystery, which is a PuA firsthand, and a Magician Second. read his material, Google Videos of him, search on youtube, whatever.

 

[Morgan B]

Just because you are a hobbyist, that uses magic to attract girls, doesn't mean you don't have to take pride in that magic you do. That is my point, not that I am better than you - as that was not my intention at all to get across, no matter how true it is. I would hope to be better than a novice, but then why doesn't my experience lend to giving you strong advice that you should take to heart? If you admit how little you know, than how can you not see my words as help to you?

Calm your emotions for a second, and re-read my posts and get beyond being defensive. If you do, you might see that I don't want you to "be like me", but that I want you to find your best you.

My initial words were to challenge you. I can tell you are upset - but honestly, your not mad at me...your mad because the truth hurts. If you ever want advice, my door is open - but only if you talk to me intelligently. I didn't call you names, I didn't trash on you - I spoke directly and honestly - FEEDBACK is a gift - cherish it pal. If you overlook it...you are cheating yourself.

I have helped MANY grow in magic - if that is ever your goal, I will help - I just wanted to challenge you on your reasoning - and you get angry. This defense mechanism signals that I hit a nerve and there may be some truth to what I said. The truth does hurt.

Regardless, I want you to realize, I don't want you to be me...I want you to treat magic better.

Thanks.

PS - As long as you buy my book, I don't care what you do with it...maybe you can use it to see over your insecurities, haha - if you ever do, you will see my waving to you to jam with me. I promise you will have an eye opener, if you choose. Because your "hopelessness" doesn't exist in your abilities, but in your inability to want to learn and grow - the lack of personal accountablity. Read your own words in a few days...if you still feel the same way, I will apolagize - but if you think I have something to offer you in the way of helping you grow - perhaps you should be saying sorry and thanking me.

Good luck Sinful07

 

[Sinful07]

You know, i'll actually buy your book just to gain insight. some of your post are quite enlightening, i must admit-


and you seem to misunderstand, the concept of 'impressing someone' is different from me performing magic. they similar in the sense that they are both deceptive- but i dont do magic solely to impress people, nor do i solely do magic to entertain and appreciate the art. There is a time when i do it for one, and another.

Its not the case of me being defensive- you are merely bordering towards disrespect which i frankly do not tolerate. I appreciate Constructive criticism, as duly noted earlier in my previous post, but calling me 'Hopeless' is just stepping out of line.

I dont think i owe you an apology of any sort, nor do i think i deserve an apology from you. a mere acknowledgement of my own personal opinion would suffice. Nothing more, nothing less.

On a brighter side of things- you're writing a book about magic? or Self-help?

 

[WilliamMckeehan]

hmmm... well i didn't mean it in that way. im not as good at explaining myself like some of you guys... but i just think people should not worry about what others think so much. if some one wants there audience to know its all slieght of hand and they are good at it. thats fine. if they want it to be a actual "magical" sense then go for that. it doesnt really matter. i dont care if people think its from a snap or whatever thats just how i normally respond to that question. in the end everyone does anything for enjoyment. music is fun to make and to hear. magic is fun to watch and perform. there is nothing wrong with making up dorky storys for magic anyway if thats what you want to do. i do my best anyway.

eitherway the posts are very fun to read i feel a bit out of place posting but what can you do?

have a good day.

 

[Sinful07]

Yeah, it did seem to have become a heated conversation instead of a thread.

on a sidenote- Isnt there a thread that was created similar to this one? if its possible, would a merge be sufficient? Since were both talking about presentation anyways.

 

[RDChopper]

*sigh*

There are other things besides Magic Morgician. I dont think you're englightened with that fact.

And no, you have misunderstood me again. I dont go to girls, show them a trick and ask for their number- instead i talk to them, and if they're decent enough, i'll show them a bit of 'what i do' for entertainment purposes.


It pains me to read that someone like you is so stubborn to accept the fact that i believe magic to be used as a 'tool' sometimes and not some 'Godly-required-skill-to-flawlessly-perfect'.

I'll say it once, and i'll say it again, and please bear this in mind the next time you post with regards to my 'poor performances'.

Im a Hobbyist. If i wanted to take magic to a proffessional level, one that i would consider making money out of, then i'd be a bit more complasant about your comments.

I respect your belief towards magic, how it is an art, however i do expect you to do the same, and that is to respect my personal perspective on how magic is to me.


To get respect, you have to earn it. and frankly saying that 'i had no hope' doesnt really show maturity.

Sure, i have no hope. Good for me eh? What achievement does that give you? Sorry, should i put down a deck of cards because someone from halfway across the globe (Give or take) Said that im hopeless because i dont 'appreciate the art' ?

Pardon, But the last time i check, i cheered blaine on even though his fans boo'ed the **** outta him cause of his endurance stunts. i frankly didnt even care about the stunt, i cared more about the magic presented beforehand.


People like you, who is equipped with a high level of vocabulary should know better. you're probably Very educated, but then again, your personality Sucks. I would ask how many times you got laid before- but then again, that'd be personal. and i wouldnt want it to be that way, unlike you.

This isnt a case of "oh, im better than you morgician" cause frankly, i do think you're better than me, and there is no way in hell that you should think otherwise.

You're probably better than me in magic, Presentation, Patter, and overall smoothness in sleight of hand.

So what though? does it actually matter? To me it doesnt. Im probably better than you in a lot of things anyways, things besides magic. if you wanted me to list my achievements, then i'll do so at your request. Unlike you, I have my ways of Showing value instead of rambling on an internet forum saying "how better i am than amateurs" then following up with a "You should see this in this perspective, and you should act this way"

For a seemingly smart person, You're very arrogant, and would always want things to view things your way. If i was to buy your book, i'd read page one and give it to charity. Your Ego will get you nowhere.

Remember, Hobbyist. Not Proffessional.


Edit:

here's the website for the attraction forums that im talking about. the 'pua' realm.

http://www.theattractionforums.com/forum/index.php

The material there has been tried and tested, so if you're gonna moan about how its all 'staged' and fake, think again, cause ive personally tried and tested this. and if you're going to specifically look into PuA, look for Mystery, which is a PuA firsthand, and a Magician Second. read his material, Google Videos of him, search on youtube, whatever.

hahaha That made me laugh...

Onto the point, there was a part of all that I am not quite happy about


"Im a Hobbyist. If i wanted to take magic to a proffessional level, one that i would consider making money out of, then i'd be a bit more complasant about your comments."

Don't take this personally, but, aren't you being mediocre? If you are a hobbyst, so what? Is that reason enough to not push your limits and try to perform the best magic you can??

"So what though? does it actually matter? To me it doesnt. Im probably better than you in a lot of things anyways, things besides magic. if you wanted me to list my achievements, then i'll do so at your request. Unlike you, I have my ways of Showing value instead of rambling on an internet forum saying "how better i am than amateurs" then following up with a "You should see this in this perspective, and you should act this way"

I know this is not magic related, but this thing right here just annoys me, The guy(morgician) spent like Half an hour giving you tips, then he says some things(wich in my opinion are true) to you, and this is the comeback you want to make? this is truly childish, He might have insulted you in some way regarding magic, you are taking the thing to personal.Grow up.

Cheers and have a nice day

 

[Morgan B]

Thanks RDChopper - I appreciate you clarifying the point - Sinful07 is young though, and he is unsure how to take feedback without getting angry...but he will pay $25 dollars to get into a lecture for someone that is a "name" to tell him the same thing.

Sinful, you should both take a look at the thread I started on "How would you "present" this?" It would be a good exercise for both of you.

As for my book - it may be both "magic self help" and "effects" - anyhow, don't take anything personally...but do realize that even if you feel that it was coming from a bad place...there is good stuff in there.

I mean honestly, I can't expect everyone to be eagles - so I don't know why I waste my time thinking that every lost magician might see how awesome it is to progress and what they path is...but if you don't take my word for it - ask some of the other veterans.

If you are happy where you are cool - I just don't know how happy I would be just doing moves and hoping I don't mess up. I only know what has made me proficient - your path may be different...but like I said, everything I have talked to you about is solid principles - take from it what you want - but if I ever see you at a convention lecturing guys on the same things...I may have to ball punch you for not crediting me.

Please don't mistake confidence for arrogance - there is a line - I may have crossed it on calling you out, but beating around the bush only waste more of your time and mine...hopefully you learnt something - and we move on to do magic the way we want to.

I am very successful at it - I hardly ever have heckler's. I make a good living with just magic, I feel that I am constantly getting better and I am considered BAD A$$ - whatever your goals are - I hope you reach them.

Cheers

 

[Sinful07]

A lot better- I'll make sure to re-read your Posts Morgician, and i appreciate the time and effort it took for you to write tips and advice.

Don't take this personally, but, aren't you being mediocre? If you are a hobbyst, so what? Is that reason enough to not push your limits and try to perform the best magic you can??

Who said i wasnt? Failing is part of learning. Which is why training wheels are needed in bikes, and likewise magicians drop cards, or flash. My path is different from everyone in the Magic community. My path is Trial and Error. if i hear a 'I know how you did that' comment from a spectator, i'll ask him or her to show me what i did wrong and work on it.

While some prefer to stay at home and practice their sleights like there's no tomorrow, i do it on the go. as well as practice sleights like there's no tomorrow. which means that im technically practicing 24/7. ( not 24/7.. but well you get my drift.)

I frankly dont have time to sit down, practice patter and my sleights in front of a mirror every day- though i do that whenever i can. My methods may not be traditional, but hey im getting better arent i? an example of my untraditional method of learning would be back palming for the whole of one day, or weekly.

Ive been learning 'Pandora' (Flourish by Dan and Dave buck) for about Four to Five months now, and i do it everywhere, whenever i can. I do drop cards occassionally, but i used to drop them all the time. In relation to the discussion: Failure (Dropping cards, as to Flashing etc) is not welcomed with a red carpet, but instead, reflected and worked on. (which is why i pick up the cards and try again.)

In relation to your comment about your goals, My Goal is To entertain People when i can. Take them to a realm where everything is possible away from logistics and reality, even for just a split second. My Goal isnt to be the best, it is simply for my audience to enjoy my Magic.

 

[Morgan B]

cool...as for your last sentence - I think they go hand in hand.

You see - I was confused, because the last Sinful07 talked about PuA - this guy is talking about being a good magician...they can co-exist...but the last guy seemed to hide behind PuA...this guy is talking magic and improvment. That I can respect.

 

[Sinful07]

uhh. No. even though Mystery follows the 'art' as well, he follows it differently quite frankly he just uses it as a 'Tool' to get women.

there was a book written with him on it teaching PuA material. Its called 'The game'. in it he would constantly talk about making a 90 minute magic show and whatnot. but he never got round to do it. as he chose PuA rather than Focusing on Magic. He makes money by Lecturing, though i still think he still wants to pursue that dream of his. That 90 minute magic act.


In a Magic-Community perspective, Mystery is something to laugh at. I'd even say so myself.


I Respect the art. Hence why im here on Theory11. There is a lot of community activity in the forums, a lot of discussion and sharing of ideas. I love that. Instead of just buying a book, learning a trick and performing it for anyone, which is what SOME websites push on to do- in theory 11 (not to ass kiss or anything) there is actually Creativity and thought involved, which is what i wanted to be a part of.

On a more brighter note i dont think i over-reacted, though i think i should have stayed a bit more civil towards the discussion. I apologise for that Morgician and also, do you have video's of yourself performing? Im curious about your performance.

No, im not going to try and spot where you make mistakes, im merely curious. also- is this book nearly finished? ive never thought about a magic-self help book before.


Edit: when i said 'Lecturing' Earlier, i meant Lecturing PuA material, not Lecturing about magic.

 

[RikAllen]

Wow, this thread has come a long way since I posted...

And reading through it was both insightful and fun...and long.

Sinful, I checked out the forum's you're a part of. Maybe it's just me and my natural social ability, but I didn't see a lot of stuff that I don't already do, that would help me.
Again-I've been perfecting techniques for a long time, and am both outgoing and I guess naturally gifted. It never hurt that my two best friends are self-working wing men...we just kind of fell into it i guess..


ON TOPIC::Also glad to see that you do practice. Pandora is a tough flourish from what I hear (I don't do much flourishing) So dropping cards practicing it shouldn't get you down. Especially if you're improving.

I would say that using magic to pick up women isn't necessary, but if it's your style-go ahead...I can't argue with results that you seem to be portraying you have.

I would say that learning a handful of sleights extremely well (double lift being the first...) and then having two or three set tricks (and then however many others you can get down well) to be able to do will be enough. If you already have a handful of sleights you can pull off without detection (whether under misdirection or just fluent use) then you should be fine.

Also learning from mistakes is key, but like I said in my first post, learn the right lessons from them. The same is key in being rejected by women, don't just learn what not to do, learn what to do in place of whatever you did wrong.

Just a few tips, little bit of advice...I'm not reviewing/editing...so I apologize for both grammar and clarity issues.


-Rik

 

[Sinful07]

Yeah, its cool. Appreciate it.

And it isnt necessary, no. its not a crutch. We (or at least i dont. lol) dont rely on it to 'pick up' in the same sense that Magicians dont rely on trick decks all the time.

The good thing about Magic is that it helps you develop audience management as well- Which is essential in the PuA realm.

anywho, nuff about that. that's another community and another day to talk about.

 

[Shakutau]

Awww...you see? Everything ended just the way it started! Now choose a card.

 

[Randomwrath]

Sinful07 – that was painful to read, honestly. I love how people talk about bombing so casually now...like, yeah, I flashed and they boo’d me...awesome, and the population of those wanting to see a trick diminishes that much more. Don’t worry – I recovered by doing what I said – finding their card.

Before I talk about “magic vs sleight of hand”, I will say, what you are performing may be the issue. I have spoken on this a number of times, getting people to WANT to be fooled and building a reason. What you “said” to recover sounded like...and I can’t believe I am using this term...”mouth garbage”. It made NO sense, and it was you stumbling on giving something meaning, that didn’t have any meaning to begin with. As I will deal with the magic/sleight of hand concept in a second – but the worst thing to do is to slap the spectator for believing one way – “You didn’t think it was real magic” and your out was a visual effect. You feel like you recovered because everyone “freaked” out, but a reaction isn’t the only indicator of your success - this is false. You found their card, but they didn’t experience magic – they experience a successful trick. Keep reading...the rest may help you. (PM me if you have any questions)

To answer your question – I have heard it from both sides. Guys like Johnny Ace Palmer and Jami Ian Swiss both will tell their audiences that they use sleight of hand...I have heard few say they have “real” magic powers – but Uri Geller made a career out of stating he had real powers...he took heat for it though. Personally, I don’t claim it’s real – but I don’t; want to remind them it’s not either. Like a movie, I go to the movies knowing it’s not real, but feel emotion and a connection – we have the ability to communicate two ways, unlike movies – so the experience should be better! Therefore, when I do magic, I let THEM come to terms with what they see – and they realize it doesn’t MATTER if it’s real or fake – it’s an amazing experience. When asked if it’s real magic, I say – yes, but not Peter Pan Disney magic – its magic in the sense of adult imagination. Because magic is real, we are doing it – but it’s not “real” magic...but then again, Hobbits aren’t real either, but Lord of the Rings was a cool flick!

Ammar really put this into terms for me, when I heard him talk. He said, and I paraphrase - To be remembered (enough to be rebooked and be considered great) you either have to display incredible skills...not just skill...INCREDIBLE skill...or you have to do something that is BEYOND skill...that skill doesn’t come to mind with what they witnesses. Which he said ran into Vernon’s – to be remembered do one thing better than ANYONE...so when people talk about it – they say, but have you seen “Your name here” do it?

I have seen many guys go the “skill” route – but as they get older, it’s harder – Vernon performed natural magic late into his life...and I won’t mention the opposite of that to hurt anyone’s feelings, but sometimes focusing on skill can shorten your career. Also, if we call ourselves magicians – and the goal is magic – magic should just happen...it shouldn’t look like flourishes and visual sleights. As seeing the “move”, and believe me...you don’t have to flash to see a move...example, PASSES ARE NOT INVISIBLE! Therefore, seeing a move or being reminded its not magic is like watching a movie and having the boom lower into the shot...or as simple as the movie theatre screen sound being off from the actual lip movement. It reminds you that it is just fantasy, and the fantasy is easily broken.


Therefore, when I do magic – I think it’s insulting to people for me to say – “I have real magic powers” and it’s why I am working table side at this restaurant?? But it’s also insulting to take the fantasy away from them and say – it’s not magic...UNLESS, you are so good that you can tell them it’s sleight of hand...and they don’t believe you, like Palmer and other greats like him get all the time.

For magic to be art, one must not try to make people see it as one way, we must allow them to see it the way they want – like music and lyrics...we often can hear the same song and get something different out of it. This is art – however, we are a living art, and the guides for the experience, but we should not interfere with the audience’s perception, just help them come along for the journey...whatever it may be for them. ..but at ALL times they should see MAGIC.

Best post I've read in a while. Very well done.

 

[Morgan B]

Thank you Randomwrath...haha...it takes brilliant people to recognize the same. Cheers.