It's Our Fault Criss Angel Is Famous

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Sep 1, 2007
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What I said was not bashing, child. I'm challenging other people to back up their opinions better. Don't like it? Cry to your mother about the bad man on the internet.

I'm not here to baby people like you. I only came back to this board as a favor. And if I'm going to be here, then I'm going to challenge every complacent, moralizing wannabe on this board to actually use the brain they were born with. If the best they can muster is telling everyone how they think the world should work, then they're screwed because I don't accept that.

This is why I say most magicians are not realists. It's all moralizing and woulda-shoulda-coulda. I on the other hand endeavor to see things as they truly are. Rather than rigidly adhering to a framework of how I think the world should work, I remain flexible. You?
 

S.G

Feb 9, 2010
664
1
As a favor? I beg you to leave now...


-G
 
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Apr 5, 2009
874
1
29
Illinois
What I said was not bashing, child. I'm challenging other people to back up their opinions better. Don't like it? Cry to your mother about the bad man on the internet.

I'm not here to baby people like you. I only came back to this board as a favor. And if I'm going to be here, then I'm going to challenge every complacent, moralizing wannabe on this board to actually use the brain they were born with. If the best they can muster is telling everyone how they think the world should work, then they're screwed because I don't accept that.

This is why I say most magicians are not realists. It's all moralizing and woulda-shoulda-coulda. I on the other hand endeavor to see things as they truly are. Rather than rigidly adhering to a framework of how I think the world should work, I remain flexible. You?

YES!! thank you!
 
Apr 5, 2009
874
1
29
Illinois
Hah! A favor that no one asked for!

how do you know? at one point in this thread i remember thinking. "steerpike would have fun with this thread" or something like that. maybe "this thread would be more fun if steerpike were here"

he could have been asked in a pm. few members here know his personal email i'm sure. if i knew his email, i would have asked him to come back just for this thread.

just because you didnt ask for it. doesn't mean somebody else didnt.
 
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Mike.Hankins

creator / <a href="http://www.theory11.com/tricks/
Nov 21, 2009
435
0
Sacramento, Cali
I would add one more thing. Timing. A good idea or a new sales pitch needs to be well timed. Blaine had the idea of turning the focus on the spectators reactions at the right time. This was when reality TV was getting popular in the late 90s and the MTV generation was used to having the focus turned around on them.

As for Criss, I think the whole goth style became popular only in the past decade, and so he happened to have the right idea at the right time.

Now imagine Copperfield starting out in the 70's and trying to perform in faded Jeans or in this goth outfit. He would have been laughed out of any performing venue.

Of course, one major problem with these kinds of fads is that when they go out of fashion, the magicians who associate with these fads will need to adapt. You can't be a hippie like Doug Henning these days and both Blaine and Angel's style might become passe in another 10 years.

When Jeff McBride was trying to make it, he was so very different from any other magicians out there. He wore face paint, tight clothes and long ass finger gloves. He was unique but wasn't that well accepted. Still today, Jeff still wears clothing inspired from the Orient and has really never changed his looks. I have seen MANY magicians copy his style of dress. He as ADAPTED to technology though...(In his Masks routine, he used to have a gold mask to signify a robot at the end. Now, he has a clear mask that lights up with all sorts of LED lights and just looks really cool.

Style isn't just about how you dress. It's also about your personality, the way you carry yourself, your overall persona.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
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What I said was not bashing, child. I'm challenging other people to back up their opinions better. Don't like it? Cry to your mother about the bad man on the internet...
This is why I say most magicians are not realists. It's all moralizing and woulda-shoulda-coulda. I on the other hand endeavor to see things as they truly are. Rather than rigidly adhering to a framework of how I think the world should work, I remain flexible. You?
[/QUOTE]

This is funny.

I don't think I've ever read a single post by you, Steer, where you have backed anything up with either fact, logic, or appeal to anything beyond your limited experience.

Dozens of times you have been called out for claiming a position that is baseless when it comes to "how the world works."

Heck, In another thread, you even managed to speak for an entire generation of which you aren't even a part. As someone closer to that generation than you, I will tell you - you got it wrong.

In this thread I see people regurgitate lines from PR packages like they are real history. I see people make assumptions about how the entertainment world works based - I think - on their dreams and musings. (There is a reason that the phrase, "it's not what you know, it's who you know" is practically a mantra it is repeated so often. Read the Keith Barry interview in Genii. Here is the story of a guy who worked really hard to get his special. He worked really hard at meeting the people he needed to meet. Facts can be fun. Try them.)

I even here people claim that Criss Angel connects with his audiences, yet pulling up "criss angel reviews" on google takes me to page after page of scathing, negative reviews NOT from magicians, but from established critics in the entertainment field (not to mention those who made the mistake of buying a ticket to his show - their words, not mine.)

Ironically, the most positive of reviews come from - a magician. So, how is it that we are the only entertainment media that always bashes itself?

I see people using the IMS award as evidence of success without any knowledge or understanding of what that award is or how it is chosen. When I ask for them to back up their position, they call names.

Is that the type of response you want here, Steer?

Here's where I think it comes from: American teachers are taught that they should never correct a student for fear it will damage their self esteem. They are told to teach that all ways are valid. This of course developed out of the work of Carl Rogers. (for the record, I have a master's degree in education. For more information, check out talks by Dr. Robert Duke on problems with this approach to teaching. Howard Gardner, a name any well read person should know, also concurs with Duke. I say this, not to brag or look smart, but to show you what backing up information might look like.)

Anyway, this leads to the erroneous belief that if you think the world works a certain way, or if you have an idea, that it has merit.

It doesn't.

And, sadly, when the statement makers inability to back up their position with facts is called out, they resort with ad hominem troll like attacks. Rather than discussing Criss, posters in this thread and other have resorted to calling me names - failure, etc.

Is this really how desperate you people are?

So, if we are going to state opinions, then yes - we should always back them up with appeals to logic and fact.

I can't say that I've seen that in any post from either Steerpike or B.

So, are we capable of having a discussion using logic and facts.

I suppose that has yet to be seen.

I only came back to this board as a favor.

For whom and for what purpose. I suppose if people are allowed to make accusations that posts by others are done solely from jealousy, you should have no problem sharing what your actual motivations are. I figured it was nicer to ask you (since you brought it up, and everything) than proclaim I know, as others seem want to do.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I don't think I've ever read a single post by you, Steer, where you have backed anything up with either fact, logic, or appeal to anything beyond your limited experience.

Then read this.

Heck, In another thread, you even managed to speak for an entire generation of which you aren't even a part. As someone closer to that generation than you, I will tell you - you got it wrong.

Show, don't tell. You have done absolutely nothing to convince me that I'm wrong, just belittled me and everyone else. And quite frankly, it's getting old.

For whom and for what purpose. I suppose if people are allowed to make accusations that posts by others are done solely from jealousy, you should have no problem sharing what your actual motivations are. I figured it was nicer to ask you (since you brought it up, and everything) than proclaim I know, as others seem want to do.

It wasn't requested. I came here because I believed it was the right thing to do. I believed in Baller's message, even if I disagree with parts of his rhetoric. And just because his opinion is unpopular doesn't mean he should have to stand alone.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
As a favor? I beg you to leave now...


-G

No.

few members here know his personal email i'm sure. if i knew his email, i would have asked him tom come back just for this thread.

My email can be found at my website. I try to stay reasonably accessible.

Style isn't just about how you dress. It's also about your personality, the way you carry yourself, your overall persona.

Style also requires a developed foundation and the willingness to experiment. Charlie Parker invented bebop, but jazz progressed so quickly that he was shunted to the side and ignored in favor of younger musicians who developed his ideas. This lead him to a downward spiral that ended in death at age 34. His friend, Miles Davis, saw all this and to avoid the same happening to him reinvented his style every few years. He was impossible to pin down, but no matter what he changed you could always tell it was Miles Davis playing.

Few people are willing to let go to that degree and become so fluid.

...because I care.

You're trying too hard.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
Steer, you made the claims - it is your job to back it up.

I am referring to the mummified hand post you made. you spoke for a generation - show me how what you said is true. Reference some established magician of that generation who has gone on record with what you say.

Not once have I ever seen you base a post on fact. Everything is some weird - this is the way I believe, so obviously it is the way the world works post.

The world is bigger than what you know.

Bill Maher had a great line about that. Storks and flaps. Look it up.

So, What is B's message exactly - and what concrete information is it based on.

Does Criss connect with people?

Show me.

1.2 million people watched the lead episode of last seasons mindfreak. 30 million the premiere of American Idol 2010. So more people are more connected to singers they have never heard of than Criss Angel.

More people will watch the youtube video "So I met Miley for realz!" than saw Criss's Mindfreak Premiere (season 5). So Criss is as relevant as someone's youtube video of them meeting miley. I can buy that.

But even more people watched babies farting in tubs and biting fingers than will ever see him. So, how connected is he?

I read that he has thousands of people show up to watch him in malls.

Maybe some people are just bad at math?

Is his style truly edgy, and forward thinking? Show me where critics (not on the mindfreak payroll or regurgitating press releases) concur?

And how about all the mockery of Criss. One TV show even did an episode called Criss Angel is a douchebag. What of the TMZ report that he is now slimier (or was it greasier) than ever?

If Criss is successful in putting forth magic in a positive way - show me where he is being received positively by people other than teens and middle ages women.

These are the claims YOU GUYS are making.

I read that Criss is more in the public consciousness than Brown - but yet, I'm not sure Mindfreak even airs in England.

Lots and lots of statements being made as fact with nothing to back them up.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
Charlie Parker invented bebop, but jazz progressed so quickly that he was shunted to the side and ignored in favor of younger musicians who developed his ideas. This lead him to a downward spiral that ended in death at age 34. His friend, Miles Davis, saw all this and to avoid the same happening to him reinvented his style every few years. He was impossible to pin down, but no matter what he changed you could always tell it was Miles Davis playing.

So, got facts to back this up? Even someone who had only seen Ken Burn's Jazz series would know this to be inaccurate.

You are projecting the intentions you want to believe were there, when there is no evidence to support it.

You made a claim. Show me the history from reliable sources that back it up, please.
 
And how about all the mockery of Criss. One TV show even did an episode called Criss Angel is a douchebag.

That TV show was "Supernatural" season 3 episode 12 I believe. Season and episode number I'm not rock solid on, but if I really wanted to I could go to my DVD shelf and look it up.

They blatantly make fun of Criss with a character in that specific show.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I am referring to the mummified hand post you made. you spoke for a generation - show me how what you said is true. Reference some established magician of that generation who has gone on record with what you say.

Mostly it's from talking to people like you. Contrary to what you claim, I don't actually believe you respect anything about me. I don't believe you have any respect at all for my generation.

Not once have I ever seen you base a post on fact. Everything is some weird - this is the way I believe, so obviously it is the way the world works post.

Then read this, because I'm getting tired of linking it to you.

So, What is B's message exactly - and what concrete information is it based on.

Criss Angel had a mainstream breakthrough. Yes, his mistakes are costing him dearly. He's burning himself out. But the fact is that he was able to make it. And why? Well, what competition did he have?

When I auditioned for Mike the Balloon Guy and Company here in Pittsburgh, they told me they were really impressed that I wasn't like regular magicians. I asked how so. They described a hacky, stale wannabe comedian with corny one-liners, lame flirty pick-up jokes, and tricks they'd seen a million times over done better by guys like Blaine on TV. That was an entertainment agency's perception of magicians.

Criss made it into the pop culture awareness, becoming an emissary to the public for how magic is represented. And if you don't think it's a positive image, it's the fault of the community at large for not evolving.

Derren Brown and Cyril have become much better representatives of the art in their respective countries. But the question is, why do we only get such emissaries every couple decades? Why can't we do better? Angel got famous and outshone other American magicians because we didn't give him any competition.

I know you don't like him, and neither do I. But in the grand scheme of things, who gives a ****? I don't like 50 Cent either, but I can learn from his success.

You made a claim. Show me the history from reliable sources that back it up, please.

I picked that particular tidbit I picked up from Robert Greene.
 
May 8, 2008
1,081
0
Cumbria, UK
I read that Criss is more in the public consciousness than Brown - but yet, I'm not sure Mindfreak even airs in England.

Just clarifying on this - I'm from England and not only does Mindfreak not air, I have never once met a non magician that knows who he is. Ever. Still, given the size of the USA in comparison to the size of Britain, he could quite easily be in the public consciousness more than many people, even with an island of people that don't recognise his name.

What I said was not bashing, child. I'm challenging other people to back up their opinions better. Don't like it? Cry to your mother about the bad man on the internet.

I'm not here to baby people like you. I only came back to this board as a favor. And if I'm going to be here, then I'm going to challenge every complacent, moralizing wannabe on this board to actually use the brain they were born with. If the best they can muster is telling everyone how they think the world should work, then they're screwed because I don't accept that.

This is why I say most magicians are not realists. It's all moralizing and woulda-shoulda-coulda. I on the other hand endeavor to see things as they truly are. Rather than rigidly adhering to a framework of how I think the world should work, I remain flexible. You?

I've recently started reading the Mervyn Peake series that I assume you take your name from. This post made me laugh a lot.
 
Dec 5, 2007
376
0
I think that people who are discussing wheter Criss Angel is good or bad or whatever is missing the point of the thread.
 
Jul 13, 2009
424
0
Edmonton, Canada
@SteerPike: You know, that had to be one of the rudest posts I have seen on here. You didn't actually state any of your own opinion there and did not try and support your facts. You just felt like bashing everyone else. Nice job...

-G


Steerpike has a good reputation of running his mouth ... just ignore the kid
 
May 8, 2008
1,081
0
Cumbria, UK
I think that people who are discussing wheter Criss Angel is good or bad or whatever is missing the point of the thread.

Relax...this isn't another Criss Angel debate. I promise.

*Coughs loudly*

At the moment, it's not about whether Criss is good or not though. When it's in context, it's about why he's achieved the success he has, rather than whether he has or not. And when it's not, it's merely people telling each other they're wrong. Whilst it's not strictly related though, it forces people to think about what they're saying, which is always worth doing.
 
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