ok - this abuse needs to end.

Sep 1, 2007
723
2
"I don't want to live on this planet anymore."

Before you click the link I'm going to post, here's a disclaimer. I used to be very against self proclaimed "PUAs" (Pick up artists) and for the most part, I still am. However, very similar to magic, PUA has been given a very bad reputation because of the abuse by those who see the "potential". For instance, in magic, magicians strive to entertain audiences, connect with them, share our art form in the form of a gift that we allow spectators to leave with. Most magicians have lost this concept, and have diverted into other types of "magic" for other reasons. I (and many magicians) don't consider these people magicians, however, the public cannot distinguish between the two sub-categories.

The PUA philosophy isn't sexist driven, it's actually the opposite, it's very anti-sexist. The term PUA is pompous, and a little misleading, it's a philosophy driven by respect. The idea of ethics in terms of attempting to "exploit psychology" for personal interest is a moral question best answered by the individual.

What we should be concerned about as magicians, and what I think everyone can agree on is that someone's blatant abuse of our art form really rubs me the wrong way.

Here's a good example: Right Here

I'll wait as you attempt to resist the urge of punching a hole in your computer screen...

...all better? Me neither.


So, discussion on "Pick up artists" aside. Please. Brainstorm time- what can we do about this? This can seriously negatively affect our art. If this keeps up, what we do will become trivial - the secrets are obviously not being respected, just abused as "tools" for someone's self interest. Let's say you saw someone like "Brad Jackson" out in public doing his "kitty" thing. How would you handle it? What would you do? Why would that be effective?
 
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Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
I've said it before on this forum in other threads that say the same thing -- trying to defend the low-life antics of using tricks for picking up a trick. . . and stop lying to yourself, that is exactly what you are doing in this sort of situation and I'll add, it is one of "those things" that is (and has been for decades) hurting the reputation of magic/magicians. Primarily due to the fact that those who start with this mind-set in their 20's will still be using it in their 50's long after they've put on the gut, lost their hair and survived the second or third divorce. . . that is, unless the wife stabs them with a prop sword, shoots them or rubs raw meat on their pant cuffs so the "kitty" tries to take a bite (all of which has happened over the years).

Too, as I've asked in the past, how would you pseudo-macho men like it is some other guy used the same techniques on you; seeking to bed you down? I don't mean some dude that's relatively attractive but rather, someone that looks more like Eugene Burger or even myself. . . think about this carefully because this particular scenario puts you in the position of those you wish to prey upon as horn-dogs will do.

The "Immorality" has nothing to do with snaring your target using magic or whatever other silliness you invoke but rather, what your catch & release program is like. Are you a whore that seeks new prey on a regular basis, or do you genuinely respect your prospects and believe them to be much more than a Fu*^?

No, the Immorality issue lays firmly in your lap and becomes such when you are consciously choosing to become a leach.

I more than understand the sexual drives of the under 35 crowd. . . been there, done that. . . fortunately I didn't catch any of the viruses that so many of my friends died from in those days (I went to over 30 funerals between 1983 and 1987 because of sexually transmitted diseases. . . not just AIDs). My 20's gave me a crew of friends much as you'd find in the movie THE BROKEN HEARTS CLUB and yet, NONE of those friends are alive today. . . I'm the only survivor. So PLEASE, chew on that bone for a while as you cuss & discuss this topic. . . the art of the hunt and capturing your prey. Morality after all, has far more to do with maturity and accepting responsibility for one's action than it has to do with who you screw and how.
 
Apr 12, 2011
30
0
Honestly, there are plenty of things that negatively affect our art of magical entertainment. Who cares. If I ever meet a PUA and they would like to discuss magic, I'm going to discuss magic with them. I don't mind. Each magic trick is designed to give the entertainer higher value, especially for making a woman attracted to you. I don't see anything at all wrong with what this guy is advertising. He isn't a worker, he isn't a paid performer, he's just found something that works for him and is interested in sharing it with the community, as any art should be. Learn, share, collaborate, and advance the art. If he can use magic tricks to pick up beautiful women, more power to him! I see no issue with him discussing his thoughts on magic to other and helping coach them along the way to become good at using magical entertainment to become successful with women.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,238
3
I honestly don't understand why any of you care.

It is no way affecting your life. Do what works for you with good intentions and leave others to do whatever is they're going to do. You'd do a lot better to spend any time worrying about what a stranger on the other side of the country is doing in a small bar full of people you will never meet instead working on what you are doing to the people you want to meet in your city.
 
Apr 2, 2011
129
0
Chicago, IL
I have to say, this doesn't bother me at all. If anyone has a negative view of magic/magicians, I try to change that. By making sure I am not a stereotype, I make sure that stereotypes aren't applied to me.
 
Aug 10, 2008
2,023
2
33
In a rock concert
Just a quick note about PUA:

You can't make assumptions about something that you do not actually know about, People do not become "pua", it just enhances their lifes.
 
Jan 20, 2009
343
2
California
I could care less if someone is using magic to get laid it is in no way affecting me
or anyone i know. i really think there are more important things to worry or get upset
about then a pua using magic.
 

formula

Elite Member
Jan 8, 2010
968
5
I honestly don't understand why any of you care.
It doesn't have to make sense, the internet is an outlet for people without friends to complain.

I didn't read the opening post (I didn't have to) but my advice is to worry about yourself before you start worrying about others.
 
Oct 12, 2009
286
0
Navarre, Florida
I feel like unless you spend the majority of your performance time in night clubs performing for drunk chicks there won't be all that much conflict here. Just do your thing.

Like anything else magic doesn't have to be any one way or the other. Stop worrying about people presenting it the 'right way' or the 'wrong way' because those things don't exist. You can't present magic as it is, only as it is to you.
 

Luis Vega

Elite Member
Mar 19, 2008
1,838
278
38
Leon, Guanajuato Mexico
luisvega.com.mx
"I don't want to live on this planet anymore."

Before you click the link I'm going to post, here's a disclaimer. I used to be very against self proclaimed "PUAs" (Pick up artists) and for the most part, I still am. However, very similar to magic, PUA has been given a very bad reputation because of the abuse by those who see the "potential". For instance, in magic, magicians strive to entertain audiences, connect with them, share our art form in the form of a gift that we allow spectators to leave with. Most magicians have lost this concept, and have diverted into other types of "magic" for other reasons. I (and many magicians) don't consider these people magicians, however, the public cannot distinguish between the two sub-categories.

The PUA philosophy isn't sexist driven, it's actually the opposite, it's very anti-sexist. The term PUA is pompous, and a little misleading, it's a philosophy driven by respect. The idea of ethics in terms of attempting to "exploit psychology" for personal interest is a moral question best answered by the individual.

What we should be concerned about as magicians, and what I think everyone can agree on is that someone's blatant abuse of our art form really rubs me the wrong way.

Here's a good example: Right Here

I'll wait as you attempt to resist the urge of punching a hole in your computer screen...

...all better? Me neither.


So, discussion on "Pick up artists" aside. Please. Brainstorm time- what can we do about this? This can seriously negatively affect our art. If this keeps up, what we do will become trivial - the secrets are obviously not being respected, just abused as "tools" for someone's self interest. Let's say you saw someone like "Brad Jackson" out in public doing his "kitty" thing. How would you handle it? What would you do? Why would that be effective?

So?...I wasn´t even aware that this guy existed or this kind of thing...to be honest, now that you have bring this to the light, some magicians over here are going to look over this..and try it..and maybe even buy the course...I wouldn´t have posted this, because after all..everyone is responsible for their actions...and the outcome of them...
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
3
I honestly look at PUA much in the same way Derren Brown looks at NLP. If you are a socially competent person who naturally has all the skills required then it may be of use helping you put the pieces together but other than that it is mostly a big marketing ploy. If you are a socially awkward person with little to no confidence and you read a book, or buy some program, then when you complete that book(program) you will be presenting yourself as a socially awkward person with low self esteem who read a book about how he is supposed to "act confident." In that sense you might shift the focus of your disgust from how you think PUA cheapens and disrespects women(and magic in this case) to how PUA dupes thousands of nerdy guys who can't get a date out of their hard earned cash.
 
Sep 1, 2007
723
2
I think some people are missing the point- this isn't about pick up artists and the principle of it. It's about someone selling other people's effects and magicians principles to the public. The target market just happens to be pick up artists. There are magicians who perform regularly in night clubs, don't you think something this could hurt what they do? Or if people catch on, will someone performing magic in a social environment be perceived as "the guitar guy"?

The question isn't why do I care, the question I posed is should we care? Will this affect us, if so- how? And what can we do about it?

Slow down on the judgements and think about what he's doing, and the problems we potentially face if it catches on. There's no denying the "pick up artist" community is a growing demographic, and I don't think they're going to be very concerned about keeping magic a secret, or spending hours building the correct presentation of an effect.

The website is already offering a "mentalism" effect using the PATEO force, and saying it was invented by the website creator's best friend Eric.
 
Sep 3, 2007
28
0
East Coast
I think some people are missing the point- this isn't about pick up artists and the principle of it. It's about someone selling other people's effects and magicians principles to the public. The target market just happens to be pick up artists. There are magicians who perform regularly in night clubs, don't you think something this could hurt what they do? Or if people catch on, will someone performing magic in a social environment be perceived as "the guitar guy"?

The question isn't why do I care, the question I posed is should we care? Will this affect us, if so- how? And what can we do about it?

Slow down on the judgements and think about what he's doing, and the problems we potentially face if it catches on. There's no denying the "pick up artist" community is a growing demographic, and I don't think they're going to be very concerned about keeping magic a secret, or spending hours building the correct presentation of an effect.

The website is already offering a "mentalism" effect using the PATEO force, and saying it was invented by the website creator's best friend Eric.

No, I don't think so. These types of discussions come up all the time this or that is going to harm magic scar the art forever. I doubt that you could make the argument that the masked magician harmed anyone's career in fact magic on television hasn't been this relevant in decades. But you should have seen the uproar he caused on the magic scene. So no I doubt this is going to affect anyone in a negative light he went away just like this guys website will no doubt dissipate into the night.

As for pick up artist community being a growing demographic, as long as I can remember people have been trying to get other people into bed with them I doubt this is "a growing demographic" and I doubt anything we do is going to slow down the sexual drives of other human beings. Best not to concern yourself with stopping that it ain't going to happen.

I am not trying to belittle your concern or be a jerk about it, on the contrary I am glad you care about the art but if you believe that the art of magic is in the secret and not in how you use it then you are worrying about the wrong things. People see through this they know when someone is being genuine and when someone is being a PUA and if they don't, they will never make the leap in faith that you are giving them credit for IE. all magicians are PUA and are only after me for sex, I think you are giving them to much credit. Go out do what you do entertain people and change the minds of those you perform for. If you touch them, no pun intended, you can make them forget about their uncle who used to pull quarters from their ears and get them to enjoy magic for the art form we believe it to be.

Now as far as the taking credit for other peoples inventions etc.... We are the only people who care about that you can't patent secrets or methods and as much as it sucks there isn't a lot you can do to change that either. Is it wrong? Yes, ethically it stinks but there isn't a darn thing we can do about it except for sharing our knowledge with those who are genuinely interested in magic which is who we should concern ourselves with in the first place. Not this guy.
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
3
I think some people are missing the point- this isn't about pick up artists and the principle of it. It's about someone selling other people's effects and magicians principles to the public. The target market just happens to be pick up artists. There are magicians who perform regularly in night clubs, don't you think something this could hurt what they do? Or if people catch on, will someone performing magic in a social environment be perceived as "the guitar guy"?

The question isn't why do I care, the question I posed is should we care? Will this affect us, if so- how? And what can we do about it?

Slow down on the judgements and think about what he's doing, and the problems we potentially face if it catches on. There's no denying the "pick up artist" community is a growing demographic, and I don't think they're going to be very concerned about keeping magic a secret, or spending hours building the correct presentation of an effect.

The website is already offering a "mentalism" effect using the PATEO force, and saying it was invented by the website creator's best friend Eric.
Well that's even worse then! Problem is that most of us are not bothering to read through the whole page and I don't think you made you beef specific enough. So naturally the rest of us offered up or "generalized" opinions. But, yes, if the guy is selling other peoples magic secrets without permission and crediting then I hex him so that all his little tricks flash! Bottom line is that the "Ugly Duckling to Beautiful Swan" (ie. in this case shy and couldn't talk to girls to real player) story is as old as the hills. There are lots of guys who go through it and some of them decide to package their experience into a program and sell it to other shy kids to make a buck. Whether that transformation happens to you has a lot more to do with you than it does with this guys PUMA program. So that makes this guy a modern day charlatan, a snake oil salesman. And now, according to you, he is an outright thief as well. He is not the first thief, nor the first charlatan, you will encounter in your life.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,238
3
I think some people are missing the point- this isn't about pick up artists and the principle of it. It's about someone selling other people's effects and magicians principles to the public...
No one missed the point. You failed to make any reference to that point in your original post. No mention at all about stealing others' marketed effects, just your concern over how PUAs using magic is going to damage the reputations of magicians.

Anyhow, on this new issue you just brought up, I think sleestak covered it well enough. Time to move on.
 
Jan 21, 2009
82
0
You're bringing up something that is important. Pick up artists DO exploit magic tricks, and that does leave a bad impression of magic on other people. Whether you're a spectator of that particular performance, or the female it's being used on, when you use magic to "pick up" someone, you're moulding the image of magic that person has.

The total refusal of the magic community to address this issue is a mistake. And the blanket indifference shown by the members on here towards PUAs that exploit magic is, I'm afraid, something that will come to bite us all in the ass.

They're not just using magic tricks to pick up girls. They're not. Look. That's the surface of what they're doing.

Underneath that, they're affecting how people percieve magic. Magic's got a bad enough rep. The tricks that we do are--BY THEMSELVES-- trivial. They don't mean anything.

Who cares if you can make a card jump up to the top fifty times in a row? NOBODY.

It ain't going to change nobody's life.

It's the meaning that we put into that performance that matters. It's how we frame that trivial effect that makes it more than trivial, and makes it border on something magical. The reason why we perform that trick is what makes it magical.

That's what makes it good theatre. That's what makes it entertaining. That's what makes it more than just another trick.

THESE GUYS ARE EXPLOITING THAT.

Rather than perform magic tricks for the sake of magic, they're exploiting magic tricks for the sake of pussy.

**** that ****.

They're leaving an unwanted association with magic to sex in their spectators' eyes. They're undermining the theatre of magic by using it for personal gain. And most of them do a bad job of performing their tricks in the first place!

So, no, I don't think this is something that should be ignored.

That said, this isn't the place to gripe and commiserate regarding your personal ills toward the Pick Up community. Beans25, don't use this thread as an excuse to subtly whine about PUAs. 1) Whinging changes nothing. 2) There are better uses of your time as a magician. Like performing, for example.

IF YOU CARE, the best remedy is to make PUAs that exploit magic obsolete. Show them up. Leave a great impression of magic on audiences so that if they come face to face with those people, they have the ability to discern for themselves how terrible magicians these PUAs really are.

No, really. They're THAT bad.

By being a better magician, a better performer, and a less sleazy person in general, you've already won the battle. Keep doing what you're doing--those guys suck anyway.
 
Sep 1, 2007
723
2
Blaireau, thanks for being one of very few who are actually understanding what I'm trying to get at here and taking it seriously. I'm not trying to subtly whine about Pick up artists, actually by having the basic philosophy explained to me, I'm -dare I say- in favor of the core values.

Do you think that just being better will work though? I almost feel like we might have a problem with the exposure that will happen - we already have to work around people thinking that magic is just for kids, now will we have to worry that we're "making a move?"

Also, remember when you learned what a double lift was? How easy was it to spot someone doing a double lift from then on? Or at the end of the effect you KNEW that the explanation was a double lift because it HAD to be. Our brain is very good at applying solutions to things. I know what you're thinking, if you were good enough at your double lift then you still won't get caught. However, what we're talking about affects younger crowds - like people who hang out at the mall, or other public areas that are great places for inexperienced magicians to try out some of their material - not just "clubs" or something. Could it affect younger magicians performing conditions?


Mat La Vore said:
No one missed the point. You failed to make any reference to that point in your original post. No mention at all about stealing others' marketed effects, just your concern over how PUAs using magic is going to damage the reputations of magicians.

Anyhow, on this new issue you just brought up, I think sleestak covered it well enough. Time to move on.

I should probably stop myself from writing posts around 2:30am - I think they come out a little vague.

Then again, by using the pre-frontal cortex we've been blessed with I would think that people would note that I was clear in what I was concerned about on the website, and specifically asked for all discussion of Pick Up Artists to be set aside in order to discuss the general idea of what I was more concerned with. Then I hoped people would follow the link and poke around the magic side of the website to see what I was talking about. Don't you think ripping off and stealing an effect would fall under the category of "negatively affect our art"? Or "Secrets not being respected"?

I trusted I wouldn't have to spoon feed. I was hoping people would look at what they thought was wrong on that website (again, explicitly aside from the "PUA" aspect) and come to the thread with their own views, thoughts and opinions.

I appreciate that you agree with Sleestak - but please don't declare that everyone agrees with his opinion, thus the discussion is now over because you say so. Obviously people still have their opinions and I would like to read them.

Enjoy your soup.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,238
3
I should probably stop myself from writing posts around 2:30am - I think they come out a little vague.

Then again, by using the pre-frontal cortex we've been blessed with I would think that people would note that I was clear in what I was concerned about on the website, and specifically asked for all discussion of Pick Up Artists to be set aside in order to discuss the general idea of what I was more concerned with. Then I hoped people would follow the link and poke around the magic side of the website to see what I was talking about. Don't you think ripping off and stealing an effect would fall under the category of "negatively affect our art"? Or "Secrets not being respected"?

I trusted I wouldn't have to spoon feed. I was hoping people would look at what they thought was wrong on that website (again, explicitly aside from the "PUA" aspect) and come to the thread with their own views, thoughts and opinions.

I appreciate that you agree with Sleestak - but please don't declare that everyone agrees with his opinion, thus the discussion is now over because you say so. Obviously people still have their opinions and I would like to read them.

Enjoy your soup.
You clearly failed to communicate what you're now saying was your actual intention with your original post. So rather than throwing out condescending remarks about spoonfeeding, why don't you take responsibility for your lack of clarity in your writing and move on with the discussion. Also, I never declared that everyone agreed with Sleestak. That is a blatant lie. Look up the word "declared." Then read back over my post. No such declarations. Interesting fabrication though. (Unless of course this is yet another example of your low-level reading and writing ability, and you earnestly have no clue what the difference between a declaration and an insinuation is, and you were just giving your first knee-jerk reaction to something you read--which in that case, I understand.)

If you don't know how to write effectively, you may want to just stick with creating threads about which new magic trick you should buy. Blaming others for your poor writing ability, however, is comical.

Enjoy your dead thread.
 
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