Shin Lim's Flawless

Discussion in 'Product Questions and Reviews' started by praetoritevong, Sep 23, 2011.

  1. So I just watched the trailer for Shin Lim's effect Flawless, and I must admit I'm very curious - has anyone ever seen this in print before?

    I ask because although I've not bought the move, I have an idea about how it's done, and if I'm correct, then I'm certain it's not original (that is, it's been done before - not disputing independent creation). I don't mean to write this in an accusatory way - of course I could be completely off, but I thought I'd defer to others here. But for one, I recall seeing a move which uses the same reveal in a different context by Tyler Wilson. But I'm also certain that this principle (if I'm right), as performed in the trailer, appears in an old card magic book (that I can't quite remember - but I do recall it being mentioned in passing). Again, I'm definitely not a guru of card magic, so I'm curious if anyone else knows anything or if I'm completely off.

    EDIT: It occurred to me that I could PM anyone with the trick/preferrably Mr. Lim himself if he's around with how I think it's done, and be either confirmed or corrected, and that would be a rather quick way of finding out...
  2. I just got done watching it, and yes you can find it in print in The leipzig book by lewis ganson pg.162
    in the book there is no credit given to leipzig or anyone else just the explanation of the move.
  3. looks amazing.
  4. I've just seen the trailer and it's pretty apparent what he is doing. I don't know where the second part is published (the part where he takes the card of the top of the deck), but you can find the first part (the part where he inserts the card in the middle) on Daryl's Encyclopedia of Card Sleights DVD's.
  5. Hey Guys,

    I actually saw this prior to Shin posting this on The Wire and showed him a citation he should make. In Card Control by Arthur Buckley there is a move called "The Transfer of a Card" by John Brown Cook and gave Shin both the page number(80), sleight name, and book name a few weeks ago. I even showed him the sleight in my copy of the book over skype.

    While this is a variation, this move does deserve crediting.

    -Alex Schaeffer
  6. Its funny because not only is this in print well before Mr. Lin was even born, he was also informed by another magician that this was in print. He was also given the credit (book, page number, and author). Theory 11 really needs to review these things better before they are allowed as downloads.

    Sorry Mr. Lin, its NOT yours.

    Thank you,
    Trini Montes
  7. i do find this somewhat offensive that Alex Schaeffer actually pointed out where this move is right in his book and still he has blatantly not given any credit to the work previously done. he mentions some inspiration, but even after pointed out book page and author as trini says, he still doesnt give credit
    and i am surprised that the wire "review team" could rate this original enough.
  8. Whilst I agree with the above comments, I'm sure the Theory 11 team will handle this with efficiency and dignity. No one is perfect, and I'm sure they don't slip through like this very often. It's good that it was brought to attention though.
  9. I think that this product also slipped by because now Shin Lim i very popular on T11 and other web sights, so they let this effect slide because they know they will make a lot of money off of it. Business...
  10. This isn't a new move. Regardless of Shin Lims popularity, he should not have released it without permission, if he was going to go ahead and release it anyway, he should have at least given credit where credit is due.

    So ethically wrong.

  11. i do somewhat agree with toby tho.
    Since t11 saw the move, and it looks great on film, and shin is a name on the wire, they will sell it to get money. and wont care about researching the move. and even after we posted all these comments here, t11 has yet to reply and has even posted it up on their twitter.
  12. I think now that we've called them out, they'll jump in on this. I would hope so.
  13. Thank you forum members!! I watched the trailer and thought I knew how it was done which made me feel like I had seen it before somewhere. I was about to order it when I got home just out of curiosity but after checking the forums I believe I will wait for the T11 teams responce. Thanks guys for potentially saving me some of my hard earned cash!!
  14. I was about to buy it when I saw this thread... I'm curious about what t11 will answer.
  15. This is what Shin Lim said on his Flawless vid on youtube in response to someone asking if it was created before him: "hi, it was inspired from the book "By Forces Unseen" however it explained it differently, in that the fingers were closed the entire time and the handling is a little different. This trick isn't necessarily entirely original, but rather a variation. It is my rendition of this trick in order to make it cleaner."
  16. That seems like language used to get around taking it down. I could be wrong, and I am making some judgements, but money is money. And business is business.
  17. Honestly what pisses me off is that I showed Shin on camera all the necessary information for the crediting in Card Control and he blatantly ignored it.

    Theory11, you really need to do some deeper researching and ensure your standards of 'The Wire' are met if you truly wish to democratize creating and publishing magic. If all of these videos are being screened and I found something to credit in my modest library in 5 minutes, something is wrong here.

    To quote The Wire terms and conditions:

    This doesn't sounds very ethical to me. Give credit where credit is due. And make sure both you—and the creator do their research. Magic is a small community, let's not forget those who came before us. It is a disservice to those who walked before us if we don't recognize them.

    -Alex Schaeffer
  18. Alright guys. Just a few words here to clarify things. Our panel reviewed this before it went anywhere. Of course we aren't going to catch everything. Not a living soul here could catch everything. In this particular instance, we turned to Jason England, one of magic's most respected and acknowledged historians, for his insight prior to release.

    After significant research and multiple conversations together, we came to the conclusion that this submission had enough originality to warrant a new release (remember, we can actually see the video explanation and method, where you guys cannot without purchasing it). Shin credits the sources from which he received inspiration for it on his trick page.

    We are reviewing this further as there have been multiple people contacting us regarding this. I expect a message here on this thread tonight from Jason England or Jonathan Bayme regarding this topic.

    We take this kind of issue seriously. We turn away by far most of the submissions to the Wire for reasons of non original material. Nothing makes it through without serious consideration, and in no way did this slip through the cracks or get posted without the extensive review process every submission goes through.

    More to come this evening.

  19. True, but I saw this effect + method before Shin even submitted it to you guys over webcam. So, in this case, I obviously was privy to the information when making the reference available to Shin. He actually asked us (Chris Wiehl, another friend, and myself) if we had ever seen something like that before when he showed us the method—soliciting a response. I quickly turned to Card Control and had footnotes on the sleight and showed him the photographs of John Brown Cook's "The Transfer of a Card." Evidentially, this is also very close to a Steranko idea as I was told last night.

  20. Shin Lim

    Alright guys,

    First things first: I would like to apologize for not crediting Aurthur Buckleys Card control. Flawless however, was an independent creation from Card control, and the actual inspiration was from By Forces Unseen.
    I have now updated my effect and given credit to Aurthur Buckley's move, however By Forces unseen still remains as my inspiration for this particular move.

    I hope this clears things up.

    Thanks, Shin Lim

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