No one's wear'n a halo kid, I'm just saying that taking something that you didn't pay for is stealing.
The Morals of "Figuring Out"
- Thread starter wZEnigma
- Start date
Heck yea, of course it's been going on for years. But just because other people do it doesn't mean it's right. "Oh, those guys killed an old man the other day, I guess it's okay for me to do it too *kills old guy*" I just am saying it's wrong to steal, but I guess you guys would disagree.
If you haven't read all the other posts in this thread, what are you contributing with your smug and self-righteous one liner? The question OP asked might seem like a simple one, but it requires some nuance to tackle it. This one question can lead to many other tricky ones that don't have simple answers. Don't believe me? check out this thread from the magic cafe, where the same question was asked a few weeks back.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=334596&forum=177&70
I think you are missing my point, this is your argument
"Oh, those guys killed an old man the other day, I guess it's okay for me to do it too *kills old guy*"
This is the point of the thread:
"Oh those guys killed an old man the other day, *thinks about killing my old man blam right to the forehead*"
I copied part of your argument and left out the rest, its basically the same thing when I reverse engineer an effect. I take what I know "Oh those guys killed a man" Then I proceed to fill in the blanks with my own imagination, "Thinks of killing someone."
I didn't copy exactly what someone did but used my own mind like a spectator who figures out your double lift. I didn't steal anything, just used logic to fill in the blanks.
thats is true...but in my instance...i don't think its stealing.....
i am not trying to talk down on stealing...that is bad...but my instance is not....some magicians can figure out other methods mainly due to the fact not too much is new these days....
i am not being mean towards you...at all...
Smug? Self-righteous? Cool off man, I'm not getting mad at anyone, I'm just saying it as it is. Stealing is wrong.
EDIT: BTW, how is that a one liner?
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Don't worry, it's all cool between us. I'm not mad either. And you're correct about not much is new now days.
Correct. If you figure out an effect, that's fine, it's not stealing. But if you go out and perform the effect, that is stealing. If you came up with the method indipendently, then that's fine. But taking an effect you didn't pay for would be stealing.
Nobody denies that stealing is wrong, but that is not what people are arguing here. I asked you to read all comments so that you would not deviate into other issues that are peripheral to what is being discussed. You compare figuring out a trick to stealing an apple from a grocer and that is ridiculous.
That sentence is a one liner.
How is that stealing?
If I use a dj mix and play it in my car with the windows rolled down and some passer buyer hears my mix of legally obtained music, am I stealing?
If you are saying I figured out an effect using sensory obtained data, and imagination that it is completely fair game ie legally obtained music. Then I decide to go and perform (play music) to the public, I am stealing from the creator of the music (magic effect) even though I went through the process of legally obtaining the music and the right to use it at my own expense.
I'm not comparing it to figuring out a trick. I'm comparing it to figuring out a trick then using it. If you figure out an effect, fine, there is no stealing involved and it's perfectly fine. But to go and use it? The guys who created that effect spent a year refining and performing it for live audiences a ton, and you just go and perform it without buying it? Those people have families too, and people to feed, and pay for a house, ect. They are just as human as you.
What if you created an effect and spent three years perfecting and refining it. Then some kid reveals it on Youtube and everybody starts performing it without buying the DVD you put out (which costs money alone). How would you feel?
These are valid points scarecrow, if the person spent more then a couple of years perfecting an effect I am almost 99.9 percent positive they wouldn't put it out on the market that quickly. If they are working magicians professional, they would keep it to themselves and use it at paying gigs. Then once they decide to retire the effect and put it out to the public, they still have made more then enough off of it.
Also the youtube exposure thing and the such is just what comes with the territory of the market now a days its unfortunate but true. But that is slidding a little off topic. Now I am going to go take an inspiring boat ride down by the river walk. Take care and happy holidays y'll!
True that, that's a subject on it's own. And it does come with the territory.
Ditto!
OK, this is better. I don't disagree with the bulk of what you said, but let me point out a few cases where things are not so clear.
Suppose an amateur who never performs for pay figures out an effect. Is it wrong for him to try it a couple of times out of curiosity? I cannot answer for sure, but I don't think it is wrong.
If it were a professional getting paid for each gig, would it be wrong if he made it a regular part of his repertoire? I would think the answer is yes, but this is not a legal issue. It is more like an unwritten set of ethics that you expect professionals to follow. Stealing has legal consequences. This case does not.
What if a trick makes use of elementary sleights that are already described in Royal road to card magic and Expert card technique? I paid for these books and can use the sleights as I wish. Am I now going to be forced to buy a $30 DVD?
These are the kinds of questions that are hard to answer one way or another. Ultimately, there is not much that can be done about this or things like exposure on youtube and I suspect working pros don't lose much sleep over these things.
Here's a question, what are we considering the stealing?
If you get payed for that effect it seems like stealing because you are profiting from it. Yet I figure out an effect and perform it with no payment involved, no tips no nothing, and I entertain people is that stealing? I really don't think so to be honest, I can see the confliction of ethics here though.
It's really up to you to make the difference, not many here have the right to call anybody out on it. My favorite quote from a book I dislike "He who is without sin cast the first stone." Not saying any stones are being cast, but it feels like it's on the edge for a few folks.
Think before you walk this morale line that you all have, are you really free from the piracy. I'm sure all of you have commited some form it as I have. I downloaded tons and tons of songs and a few movies, and it's awesome because IT'S FREEEEEE. Then again the high road is more difficult, and the path less taken so I don't take it against anybody who goes the lesser road in this situation.
If you get payed for that effect it seems like stealing because you are profiting from it. Yet I figure out an effect and perform it with no payment involved, no tips no nothing, and I entertain people is that stealing? I really don't think so to be honest, I can see the confliction of ethics here though.
It's really up to you to make the difference, not many here have the right to call anybody out on it. My favorite quote from a book I dislike "He who is without sin cast the first stone." Not saying any stones are being cast, but it feels like it's on the edge for a few folks.
Think before you walk this morale line that you all have, are you really free from the piracy. I'm sure all of you have commited some form it as I have. I downloaded tons and tons of songs and a few movies, and it's awesome because IT'S FREEEEEE. Then again the high road is more difficult, and the path less taken so I don't take it against anybody who goes the lesser road in this situation.
There are some things that are clearly illegal, such as downloading songs, movies and magic videos off the internet without paying for them. That is not what we are talking about here.
There are some things that are clarly in violation of magician's ethics, such as exposing effects on Youtube. I would also put learning published (written or video) effects on youtube as a violation of magican's ethics.
The figuring out and performing a published effect is a more difficult area. Now is there anything wrong with trying to figure out how an effect is done. No. That sort of thinking makes us better magicians. Is there anything wrong we being successful in coming up with a method? No, it shows that we actually know something about how to construct (or de-construct) magic effects.
Is there something wrong with performing an effect we have figured out by watching the previews? I think so. An effect is made up of three parts: the plot, the presentation and the slights. The plot is the order of the slights and how the effect progresses. The presentation is the patter used by the magician in presenting the effect.
By figuring out an effect, we are figuring out the slights. But we did not come up with the plot or the presentation. Let's say that we change the presentation so that it fits our style. So that leaves the plot. By performing the effect we are copying the plot that was developed by another magician. That is not illegal because the plot is not protected by copyright laws, but I think that it is unethical. In essence we are using something that someone else developed without paying them for it.
The argument that you figured out the effect because it was a rehash of an old effect or a combination of slights written about in the early 1900s really doesn't hold water. That argument implies that there is no value to the effect (i.e. the DVD or book) because it was so easy to figure out. If that is the case, then why are you performing that effect? Obviously because the plot of the effect was good enough for you to want to use that effect.
There are effects that I've figured out such as French Kiss and Autograph. However, I will not perform those effects unless I purchase the relevant DVDs. The simple reason is that I did not come up with that plot or that handling.
What would happen if everyone figured out all of the effects that are put on the market? Where would the incentive be for people to put the time and effort into creating and making available effects? I think the answer is that there would be a lot less magic available for us to purchase.
There are some things that are clarly in violation of magician's ethics, such as exposing effects on Youtube. I would also put learning published (written or video) effects on youtube as a violation of magican's ethics.
The figuring out and performing a published effect is a more difficult area. Now is there anything wrong with trying to figure out how an effect is done. No. That sort of thinking makes us better magicians. Is there anything wrong we being successful in coming up with a method? No, it shows that we actually know something about how to construct (or de-construct) magic effects.
Is there something wrong with performing an effect we have figured out by watching the previews? I think so. An effect is made up of three parts: the plot, the presentation and the slights. The plot is the order of the slights and how the effect progresses. The presentation is the patter used by the magician in presenting the effect.
By figuring out an effect, we are figuring out the slights. But we did not come up with the plot or the presentation. Let's say that we change the presentation so that it fits our style. So that leaves the plot. By performing the effect we are copying the plot that was developed by another magician. That is not illegal because the plot is not protected by copyright laws, but I think that it is unethical. In essence we are using something that someone else developed without paying them for it.
The argument that you figured out the effect because it was a rehash of an old effect or a combination of slights written about in the early 1900s really doesn't hold water. That argument implies that there is no value to the effect (i.e. the DVD or book) because it was so easy to figure out. If that is the case, then why are you performing that effect? Obviously because the plot of the effect was good enough for you to want to use that effect.
There are effects that I've figured out such as French Kiss and Autograph. However, I will not perform those effects unless I purchase the relevant DVDs. The simple reason is that I did not come up with that plot or that handling.
What would happen if everyone figured out all of the effects that are put on the market? Where would the incentive be for people to put the time and effort into creating and making available effects? I think the answer is that there would be a lot less magic available for us to purchase.
Why shouldn't yo preform it if you figure it out. Tricks and magic wouldn't evolve if people couldn't see pas the illusions every once in a while and maybe even preform them. If everyone who could figure something out and they still did not preform it then eventually there would only be a few people who could even create magic without having somehow taken someone else's idea. Just preforming doesn't do any harm. However, if you said that you were the one creating the trick then there would be a problem.
Well again, we aren't talking about revealing it on Youtube. That is an entirely different issue. We are just talking about preforming. There is a big difference between those two.
