What is this trick called?

[William Draven]

Thanks! Im definately going to get that soon

- Jenai

And get this you mean you're going to download this for free online?

Don't think I didn't see your post on that infamous magic exposure website whose name I shall not utter here.

Your free magic downloading kind disgust me! You sit here in our forum, asking for advice, and then run to another website and ask for a free download.

If you look at the dates and times the posts were made, no sooner did someone on this forum tell you what the trick was, you posted up on the other forum asking where you can download it. Your kind of free magic trolls disgust me.

You are nothing more than a magic whoring troll. I'm going to request the mods take this into consideration. I don't know if anything can be done about this, but I certainly think something should be done.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Jenaj,

The point is that you are using someone else to find your tricks for you. You are taking advantage of their work, research and vision and offering them nothing in return - not even a 'please" or "thank you'.

Perhaps you have never invested thousands of dollars or hundreds of hours finding material for your own performances. If you had, then maybe you would not be so cavalier in taking ideas (and trick selection is an idea) from another performers act.

The short answer is - you went behind his back. If you see a performer and want to use anything you see, you must ask them - not us - them.

Even if it means doing a little research on your own --like calling the competition organizer and getting a number or email for the person whose work you want to coopt.

So I should ask Ricky Jay if I can perform a version of the Exclusive Coterie?

I agree with you to an extent, but when one sees a 'standard' presentation of an effect, does one really need to ask the performer for permission? Yes, it's kind of lazy to just come onto a forum and describe the trick, hoping someone else will tell you the name and where to find it, but I also think that this is the beginning of research. When we see effects we like, if we're not able to talk to the performer and ask them about it, we have every right to do our own research.

Again, though, I'm not defending the lazy approach. Personally, I find great satisfaction in discovering the methods to tricks that amazed me on my own.

I really don't think that someone performing an effect that was published by a third party has any exclusive rights to performing that method. They have rights to any original presentations, definitely, but the method is up for grabs, if it has been published.

So the answer, in my mind, is to always personalize your magic. Take an existing effect and present in such a way that anyone else using that presentation will obviously be copying you.

 

[RealityOne]

You sit here in our forum, asking for advice, and then run to another website and ask for a free download.

***

I don't know if anything can be done about this, but I certainly think something should be done.

I agree completely.

The sad part is stuff like this makes me (and I assume others) less likely to help people looking for an effect because there is the risk they are going to do the same thing.

 

[Brad Henderson]

So I should ask Ricky Jay if I can perform a version of the Exclusive Coterie?
.

If the reason you want to do the trick is because you saw him do it, then yes - absolutely you MUST ask.

Everything is in your post is an attempt at rationalization.
There are thousands of tricks in thousands of books you waiting for a hard working performer to breathe life into them.

Why is everyone so determined to steal someone else's breath?

 

[William Draven]

If the reason you want to do the trick is because you saw him do it, then yes - absolutely you MUST ask.

If a magician creates an effect, and releases it for purchase on the open market, and still uses the same effect, and patter as taught in the purchased product whether it be a book, DVD, lecture notes, or otherwise then I disagree. By purchasing the effect, you have also purchased the permission to use that effect and patter as taught.

However if the magician uses a different patter or presentation other than what is taught, or the effect isn't available on the open market for purchase, then yes, ethically you should ask permission first. Unless the performer is dead. Death usually changes the rules a bit.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

What you seem to be suggesting is that we only perform material we've never seen anyone else perform, unless that performer has given us their blessing, even if that material (and presentation) is not original to that perfomer. That seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Copying someone's original trick is wrong, I agree. Copying someone's original presentation to a published trick is wrong, I agree with that as well. But seeing someone perform an effect, then doing your own research to find a method for it, then performing it in your own unique way? That's fine.

What if I see multiple people perform the same effect? Should I contact every single one of them? I want to learn the needle swallowing routine some day. Do I have to contact Steve Spill, Teller, Wayne Houchin, Criss Angel and every other performer I've seen on YouTube?

I saw The Exclusive Coterie back when Ricky Jay and his 52 Assistants aired on HBO. I think it was in 1995. The trick stuck with me. When I started learning magic, I stumbled across the idea of an ace assembly, which is all the Exclusive Coterie really is. Though Ricky Jay was my original introduction to that effect, I've seen ace assemblies performed by a dozen or more people.

But I've done my own research, I've decided on a presentation that I want to do that I have never seen before. The trick is not original, but I think my presentation will be. By your logic, it seems like I should contact everyone I've ever seen do an assembly and get their blessing. That's just not going to happen, it's ridiculous.

 

[Brad Henderson]

William,

That's not what I said. If you see someone perform a piece and that performer has released it commercially, of course you can buy it and performit.

However, seeing me perform a piece I dug up in an old book is not fair game simply because that piece was in a book. You are using my vision and research to pad your act. At least ask me.

Christopher,

Needles should be part of any well versed magicians knowledge base. If it appeals to you, then do it. But if you suddenly DECIDE to do the needles after watching teller, then yes, you are being creepy.

Sam the bellhop was available for a dollar from magic inc for twenty years. No one wanted to do it until after malone did it on tv

the kornwinder car was available for ages, but no one was looking for them until after they saw tamariz do it on tv.

(Both cases before either men released their handlings commercially).

Why do we need to use another persons act as our research. Plenty of people are willing to sell you their secrets. Why do we need to steal thetreasuers others have mined for their own performances.
About to board a plane. Off to do a show in vegas.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I think you are taking a narrow view.

Not everyone can afford to buy book after book to find a method that suits them. Getting a leg up on that research can save a lot of money and time for people that don't have much to spare. Is magic restricted to people with deep pockets? That doesn't seem fair at all.

Not everyone can contact the people they first saw perform the effect. Do you really think that Ricky Jay is going to answer an e-mail from me? That's assuming I can even find an e-mail address for him. Or a mailing address for that matter. The chances of me finding him in person are pretty much nil, since I can't afford to travel and wouldn't know where to go in the first place.

And actually, Wayne's version of the needle swallowing is what originally sparked my interest in the effect. I'd never seen anyone perform anything like that, so it was my introduction to the effect as a whole. He created his own handling, but he certainly didn't invent the effect, and his presentation isn't that unique in the magic world. Why should I have to ask him for permission to research the effect myself and find my own way of doing it?

Basically, what I'm asking is this: What gives a performer the right to an effect published by someone else? Presentation, yes. Research/performance of, no.

The way I see it, if I see an effect for the first time, then I go and research possible methods and finally settle on something that works for me (and is not a copy of someone's unique presentation), then it's fair game. That's how magic progresses, and new plots or effects are created. Someone sees something, is inspired by it, researches methods, creates something new. By your model, magic would be crippled by the constant searching for permission from people that have little to no rights to the methods in the first place.

 

[William Draven]

William,

That's not what I said. If you see someone perform a piece and that performer has released it commercially, of course you can buy it and performit.

However, seeing me perform a piece I dug up in an old book is not fair game simply because that piece was in a book. You are using my vision and research to pad your act. At least ask me.

I would agree Brad. So long as you're not running stock. But if you're presenting things as they were in that book, with out changing it, or adding anything unique, original, or new, then it's no different than something in current circulation.

But if you've taken an older principle and added something new, changed the presentation, or altered the handling at all then of course, it's yours. Permission should be given.

 

[Randy]

When did this topic turn into stealing other peoples acts. The kid just asked for a single effect. Not the persona, scripting, lighting and all that other stuff.

 

[Cedric Taylor]

Does it really matter???

People use guns and knives all the time to murder and steal.

Just because people do bad stuff all the time, does that mean the bad stuff they do doesn't matter?

maybe u weren't getting my point. I don't see how a person should need advice from the magician to perform an effect thats already released. Then that would make all magic companies a vain business. Thats what i was commenting on when i say everyone does it.

Thats why books are published to inform. If you as a magician don't want the information used then don't publish the book. Maybe you are speaking on something else but thats what i meant.

 

[Cedric Taylor]

I would agree Brad. So long as you're not running stock. But if you're presenting things as they were in that book, with out changing it, or adding anything unique, original, or new, then it's no different than something in current circulation.

But if you've taken an older principle and added something new, changed the presentation, or altered the handling at all then of course, it's yours. Permission should be given.

Draven,

I think if a magician went and performed something as it was done in a book or DVD. Everyone would then call him a carbon copy. Then that magician would be ridiculed. I think these effects are released for our own diversity. Thats a common phrase the artists that release effects say. "Go out and make it your own". Why say that if we are to just perform the effect verbatum???

 

[Brad Henderson]

I think you are taking a narrow view.

Not everyone can afford to buy book after book to find a method that suits them. Getting a leg up on that research can save a lot of money and time for people that don't have much to spare. Is magic restricted to people with deep pockets? That doesn't seem fair at all.

Not everyone can contact the people they first saw perform the effect. Do you really think that Ricky Jay is going to answer an e-mail from me? That's assuming I can even find an e-mail address for him. Or a mailing address for that matter. The chances of me finding him in person are pretty much nil, since I can't afford to travel and wouldn't know where to go in the first place.

And actually, Wayne's version of the needle swallowing is what originally sparked my interest in the effect. I'd never seen anyone perform anything like that, so it was my introduction to the effect as a whole. He created his own handling, but he certainly didn't invent the effect, and his presentation isn't that unique in the magic world. Why should I have to ask him for permission to research the effect myself and find my own way of doing it?

Basically, what I'm asking is this: What gives a performer the right to an effect published by someone else? Presentation, yes. Research/performance of, no.

The way I see it, if I see an effect for the first time, then I go and research possible methods and finally settle on something that works for me (and is not a copy of someone's unique presentation), then it's fair game. That's how magic progresses, and new plots or effects are created. Someone sees something, is inspired by it, researches methods, creates something new. By your model, magic would be crippled by the constant searching for permission from people that have little to no rights to the methods in the first place.

1) The exclusive coterie is not a method. No one cares about methods but magicians. I make a card appear in a watermelon. You make a card appear in a watermelon. We use different methods. The audience walks away thinking - those two guys did the same trick.

No one is suggesting you can't do a four ace assembly. But if you watch ricky do his act and then start spouting erdansian patter while doing a four ace assembly - regardless of the method - you are in the wrong. Just ask ricky

2) Why do you need to see someone do a trick before you start researching it? What's wrong with going to a library, using ask alexander, buying books, dvds, attending conventions or lectures? With all of the opportunities available - why would you want to use someone else's act as your starting point.

Isn't that lazy?

3) Teller says, hate breeds more good art than love. When you love something and copy it, you aren't making a difference. In fact, you are actively detracting from something that at one time was unique.

If you want to learn from another performer, find what they do that you hate - and never do that. It sets you apart.

4) You say;Not everyone can afford to buy book after book to find a method that suits them. Getting a leg up on that research can save a lot of money and time for people that don't have much to spare. Is magic restricted to people with deep pockets? That doesn't seem fair at all.


I must ask - why should your unwillingness to invest in your art give you permission to use someone elses work/research/vision for your own purposes?

And you don't have to buy books. You can use dvds, or downloads, or go to the library.

When I was 10 I sold my video game system to buy magic books. I didn't have money. But I built a library and you can too. Call any magic shop and ask them what they will sell their old magazines for? Cheap. Reading the old mags in hank lee's bin was one of the ways max maven built his massive knoweldge base.

4) According to your thesis, you should be allowed to cull through ricky's show, find the tricks he did (many are published) and start doing them. Really? Do you think that's good for ricky, do you think that would be good for you? Do you think that would be good for magic?

6) What if you asked draven about the neesdles before you started working on it. He seems like a cool guy. I wonder how much further how much quicker you might habe gotten.

7) If you want to be respected in magic, you should treat other magicians and their material with respect. If you see someone do something and you want to do it, the respectful thing to do is ask. You would be surprised how accessible people are and how helpful they will be.

And no, you probably won't get in touch with ricky but I'll save you some time.

He'll say no.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

1) The exclusive coterie is not a method. No one cares about methods but magicians. I make a card appear in a watermelon. You make a card appear in a watermelon. We use different methods. The audience walks away thinking - those two guys did the same trick.

No one is suggesting you can't do a four ace assembly. But if you watch ricky do his act and then start spouting erdansian patter while doing a four ace assembly - regardless of the method - you are in the wrong. Just ask ricky

Using the patter supplied in the book itself (not the minor changes he made, but straight from the book) is wrong? Seriously? That's absurd. Erdnase isn't exactly obscure. It's mere happenstance that I saw Ricky perform it before I found the book itself. Had I seen the book first, I probably would want to use a fair amount of the patter supplied, because I like the sound of it.

2) Why do you need to see someone do a trick before you start researching it? What's wrong with going to a library, using ask alexander, buying books, dvds, attending conventions or lectures? With all of the opportunities available - why would you want to use someone else's act as your starting point.

Isn't that lazy?

Because I hadn't seen it or read about it before I saw someone else do it? The library here has almost nothing on magic. Ask Alexander requires a membership to the CARC. Buying books takes money, as does buying DVDs which also require time at my computer to watch. Lectures also cost money, and conventions require both money and the ability to travel. These are generally luxuries I do not have.

3) Teller says, hate breeds more good art than love. When you love something and copy it, you aren't making a difference. In fact, you are actively detracting from something that at one time was unique.

If you want to learn from another performer, find what they do that you hate - and never do that. It sets you apart.

I'm not sure why you even brought this up, but I want to point out one thing that I think is a misunderstanding on your part. I don't want to copy anything. When I see a unique presentation, I may like the effect and learn it some day, but I won't do that presentation. I find my own way to present things.

4) You say;Not everyone can afford to buy book after book to find a method that suits them. Getting a leg up on that research can save a lot of money and time for people that don't have much to spare. Is magic restricted to people with deep pockets? That doesn't seem fair at all.


I must ask - why should your unwillingness to invest in your art give you permission to use someone elses work/research/vision for your own purposes?

And you don't have to buy books. You can use dvds, or downloads, or go to the library.

When I was 10 I sold my video game system to buy magic books. I didn't have money. But I built a library and you can too. Call any magic shop and ask them what they will sell their old magazines for? Cheap. Reading the old mags in hank lee's bin was one of the ways max maven built his massive knowledge base.

Well, I'm not 10 and I have far more responsibility than a 10 year old. I'm almost 30 and I basically live paycheck to paycheck. I don't have a video game system to sell, I don't even have a TV. I am building a library, but that takes time and I can't, at this point, afford to make extraneous purchases in search of random material. I only buy when I'm looking for something specific. Sure, some day I hope to be able to just pick up stuff and search for new material, but in the mean time I have to have a way to know what to look for. Seeing someone else perform a trick lets me see something new that I can then begin to research on my own.

Just because I have very limited resources to invest in my art doesn't mean I'm not investing.

4) According to your thesis, you should be allowed to cull through ricky's show, find the tricks he did (many are published) and start doing them. Really? Do you think that's good for ricky, do you think that would be good for you? Do you think that would be good for magic?

Actually, no, that's not what I'm saying and this leads me to believe you're just making assumptions without actually thinking about anything I type. Which makes me wonder why I'm wasting my time.

There are effects I think would be fine to use. The four-card productions are not unique to Ricky, for instance. His script to them is, and thus is off limits, but by your logic, I should ask him if I can produce a four of a kind from a deck, since he's the first one I saw do it. But he's not the first person to do a four card production, he's not the only person doing them now, and he won't be the last person to do them. Unless everyone followed your logic.

What you seem to be ignoring is that I'm not saying I want to copy Ricky Jay or anyone, for that matter. But if I see someone perform and a trick stands out to me, and I do some research and find a method, then create MY OWN presentation, then how can that possibly be wrong?

6) What if you asked draven about the neesdles before you started working on it. He seems like a cool guy. I wonder how much further how much quicker you might habe gotten.

When I get to a point where I have time and resources to start researching this effect, I probably will contact him. But I'm busy with other material right now, and quite frankly can't afford to start researching something new yet.

7) If you want to be respected in magic, you should treat other magicians and their material with respect. If you see someone do something and you want to do it, the respectful thing to do is ask. You would be surprised how accessible people are and how helpful they will be.

And no, you probably won't get in touch with ricky but I'll save you some time.

He'll say no.

I agree with you, when it comes to UNIQUE material. But I think it's completely absurd to expect someone to request permission to perform a published effect, from someone other than the author of the effect. If someone wants a completely unique repertoire then they will have to invent everything they do. If they perform ANY published effect, that published effect is up for grabs for anyone that can find it.

I'll go ahead and re-enforce this point, though, because I want to be very clear. I am referring to methods here. Not presentation. A unique presentation is off limits. But creating one's own unique presentation to a published effect that one has seen someone else do is not wrong, and I don't think one should be required to ask permission from the other performer to research and perform that material.

 

[William Draven]

I think the bottom line here is this: If you're performing a published trick using published patter, and so long as you've paid for the effect, DVD, or book the effect was found in then it's fair game. If the effect was published in 2004 or 1894, the age doesn't matter. The fact is that the effect was published and is available to the general public.

If another magician famous like Ricky Jay, or not so famous like your uncle Bob, uses the same effect, idea, and method, whole sale as you did, then it's their fault for not being original. (As much as it's yours too.)

If you have created the effect yourself, the effect isn't available for purchase on the open market, or made significant changes to the original presentation, patter, or method, then I would agree with Brad. Permission to perform it should be sought from the owner/ originator. Or to use his own analogy, make your own significant changes to the effect, and create your own version. So, ditch the watermelon and use a pumpkin instead.

 

[Brad Henderson]

Christopher,

I assure you I am not trying to be obtuse. I and many others in the magic world hold this position.

You suggest again and again that if you change the presentation, it is some how ok.

Is it?

Card to watermelon done to poetry is still card to watermelon when done with proceedural patter. If the audience walks aways thinking they have seen the same trick, you are copying.

Someone asked michael weber at magiccon, how different must a trick be before you can consider it your own? He replied, when the person who 'inspired' your work (either in print or through performance) can no longer recognize their efforts in what you are doing. I know, that a big step to have to make - but is magic better or worse when people don't take that step? (And before you answer, talk to a booking agent about magic acts.)

Every post you have made puts you on a path of making your work more closely resembling that of another magician as opposed to something unique, and artistic, offered by you (hence the teller quote). You seem to suggest you live without resource to other magicians who can help you learn. So I can only assume the magicians you are watching are those on tv and youtube - the same magicians laypeople are likely to see in the first case and perhaps will see in the other. By choosing your material from the buffet that has already been served by others, can you not see how you are offering nothing new - only derivative shadows of the original flavors already tasted by your audience when prepared for them by other chefs ... Does it matter if you put green food coloring into the jello instead of red? Will anyone who has seen these others before think of you as something special - or just a guy doing old tricks?

Now, you lament the inability to afford books in order to research tricks that would work well for you. I find this puzzling. Not the money part. But the idea that it is easier to 'see' how something would work well for you from watching someone else do it, as opposed to taking the description in a book a figuring it out HOW to make it work well for you.

You tell us that you plan to put your own spin on things - but why start on a foundation so well spun already? Won't you get to a more unique product by starting with a blanker slate?

Take any book - the 4th volume of tarbell for example. There are hundreds of tricks in there you have probably never heard of - nor have anyone on these boards or anyone you might likely perform for.

Why not spend this time you already are planning to spend personalizing the trick, and do that with one of those?

When you say watching another performer helps you see tricks that might work for you - that just doesn't make sense. Why can't you get that from a book?

If you have the ability to look at someone act and ;change their trick' into something truly different and unique to you, that would not invite comparison to them - then you have the ability to do it from a book. And here's the thing - you will have thousands of more options available to you AND you can be sure that everything you add is YOU. It can be done. You CAN do it. Everyone here can.

But its easier to let someone else do it for us, I guess.

IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE READ THIS: christopher, As to the exclusive coterie - what do you think would happen if you performed this at a magic convention with well posted magicians present? What about in a show where theatrically savvy people attended? How do you think you would be received? What would they say?

What if you changed part of it - the method or presentation. Would it matter?

do you recall the michael vincent issue regarding the mutliple selections routine? What was said about "his" 'version' of ricky's routine in the magical press?

You seem to be taking a position based on the way you think the world should work - so it makes your life more pleasabt - and not taking into consideration what actually happens.

Finally, draven seems to think that as long as its in print, its fair game. Trick selection is as personal and artistically revealing/important as original methods and presentations. Some magicians spend their lives rediscovering lost and hidden diamonds and shining them to performance perfection.

Why should someone be able to steal this research from them?

Now, I'm not talking about someone who has seen 14 magicians produce bowling balls from note pads, sees the ads for it in the magazine and buys it.

I'm talking about the guy who watched t.c. (I will use his initials as I do not want people pouching his material) perform an exceedingly obscure scotty york or fred kaps trick that we all read yet no one ever bothered to think twice about, and then runs out and is suddenly inspired to start performing it.

How is that good for t.c.? Should we care about a fellow performer who uses this material to put food on his table?

How good is it for magic? Are we better off now that instead of one person doing something truly unique and impossible, we now have two? How is that now either unique or impossible?

How good is it for the copyist? He will now go through life being comparable to another - someone who probably knows more about the trick than the copyist will ever know.

But here's the funny thing - if someone looked up either kaps or york and picked any of the tricks that they haven't seen someone do - spent just a little thought making it their own (which is what, christopher, you say you are going to do anyway) then ALL of these problems disappear like magic.

The question is - do you want to do magic. Do you want to give your audiences something truly unique and special - or do you really just want to copy what you see for your own amusement.

The difference is in looking on the page someone elses work leads you to, or turning to the next and starting there.

Brad

Ps. Email carc. They have a program now where they will give you free membership in exchange for pointing out scan mistakes when you find them.

See - problem solved

 

[Luis Vega]

Ps. Email carc. They have a program now where they will give you free membership in exchange for pointing out scan mistakes when you find them.

See - problem solved

wow, great post...always nice to read what you write...

btw...can you elaborate on this?

 

[Brad Henderson]

Christopher, forgot to add;

I am also perplexed how someone can learn to develop their own style/approach whatever when the are on a steady diet of other peoples styles and approaches. Seems to me, using a medium that divorces itself from other magicians performance choices makes it easier to be unique.

Louis,

I don't have any more details that what I shared. Kalush mentioned this at magicon and we spoke at g4g9 about strategies to open ask alexander to more people who can benefit from it. I would suggest emailing carc.

 

[RobAnderson]

And while everyone is here arguing, the OP has probably already pirated a copy of Banachek's work and is now perforing it at his school lunch table as we speak...

 

[William Draven]

No he isn't. I spoke with him personally. He's learned his lesson, and has shown signs of repentance.

Brad: You almost understand what my point was. Yes, if you perform an effect, patter and method wholesale as it's been published then you're not original. It's not your effect, and you're at just as much of an advantage as anyone else who tracks down your source.

However, we are in agreement if you change the patter, presentation, method, or otherwise make it original or unique to your style. If that's the case, then I have no argument with your point. I don't know how I can explain this position any clearer for you. I've tried thrice now.