Well yeah I see what you mean. The point is that they have no frame of reference on what you are doing. They know you are doing SOMETHING, but they don't know what it is. It's like if you did a classic pass. They saw you do SOMETHING, but they have no idea what exactly. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing if you present what you do as sleight of hand.
Does Coin Magic...
- Thread starter Morgan B
- Start date
True. That's just problem (specially with some people who tend to say what they are doing.) I've always believed that if you want people to actually connect with what you're doing you have to tell stories that happen to everybody. Coin to anywhere could be something a long the lines of you finding money in the most unlikely of spots. Imagination Coins could be something about how you have an overactive imagination. Just that many people don't try to come up with realatible stories.
Well that's the problem with most magic. It doesn't let the magic happen in their hands or them. They either see you doing something so it's like they are watching TV. In opinion in order to take people into the boat ride from Charlie in the Chocolate factory, you have to have things happen to them. Which a lot of coin magic doesn't have besides maybe Copper Silver stuff and maybe Scotch and Soda and possibly Imagination coins. Tho I am sure there are other routines out there that have stuff like that happen to them.
Randy - read your posts...you use this phrase "That's the PROBLEM" - you see too many problems, that aren't really problems. Start seeing the solutions. There are actual problems, but you are so busy looking at the superficial ones, that you are missing the ones that are difficult to solve and need attention.
It really reads like you are trying to critically think like the big boys, but you are failing - miserably I might add. Perhaps you should stop giving your opinion, and start asking - so you can learn. You are so off base that a handicapped old man could still tag you out - you are talking in circles - and whenever a solution is provided for you - you take another blind stab at it.
Seriously, both Steerpike and I have spent time writing to you - and you still are missing the point...
You don't have to have things happen to them - it's nice - but not a need for them to enjoy it.
You don't need to tell "stories" - as you can just communicate with them.
It's odd...you act like you have read Strong Magic and other books...have you absorbed ANY of it?
You see Randy - there are many coin effects out there - however, very few resolve all the issues I listed. I could name MANY effects of other mediums that do handle all the issues - and we have spoke on them.
I am not challenging you to name those few effects, but start to see the issue in coins and seeing if you can take those pieces of crap that have gaps and don't live up to the standards of strong magic - and make them better.
Steerpike shared how he took a pointless plot and adding logic and meaning to it - now - I haven't seen it in person, so perhaps there are issues in handling that "look" like moves...despite his abilities...as I find many coin moves, look like coin moves - or perhaps not - for it is his quest to deal with these issues in his way.
NOTE - he does not deny these issues exist - for it would be foolish to think that they don't - worse that foolish, I would say dangerous - in a magic malpractice kind of way.
So - to try to sum it up for you again - think of a coin effect that YOU do - and ask yourself - do any of these issues ring true. How can I solve it? Can I solve it? If not, is it really that good an effect? Why am I doing it, if it is not a perfectly constructed effect.
Don't reply that "nothing is perfect", as some Olmpic sports are based off of doing, for example, a dive that has a higher value. I like to only do 10's...as it gives me the chance at perfection...I would hate to fall short of that goal because of my effect selection, rather than my own shortcomings...the former I have no shot at a 10...the latter can be improved upon and strived for.
So - the answer on why you do low quality coin work: You must love showing magic that is imperfect or flawed...or you don't know any better.
It really reads like you are trying to critically think like the big boys, but you are failing - miserably I might add. Perhaps you should stop giving your opinion, and start asking - so you can learn. You are so off base that a handicapped old man could still tag you out - you are talking in circles - and whenever a solution is provided for you - you take another blind stab at it.
Seriously, both Steerpike and I have spent time writing to you - and you still are missing the point...
You don't have to have things happen to them - it's nice - but not a need for them to enjoy it.
You don't need to tell "stories" - as you can just communicate with them.
It's odd...you act like you have read Strong Magic and other books...have you absorbed ANY of it?
You see Randy - there are many coin effects out there - however, very few resolve all the issues I listed. I could name MANY effects of other mediums that do handle all the issues - and we have spoke on them.
I am not challenging you to name those few effects, but start to see the issue in coins and seeing if you can take those pieces of crap that have gaps and don't live up to the standards of strong magic - and make them better.
Steerpike shared how he took a pointless plot and adding logic and meaning to it - now - I haven't seen it in person, so perhaps there are issues in handling that "look" like moves...despite his abilities...as I find many coin moves, look like coin moves - or perhaps not - for it is his quest to deal with these issues in his way.
NOTE - he does not deny these issues exist - for it would be foolish to think that they don't - worse that foolish, I would say dangerous - in a magic malpractice kind of way.
So - to try to sum it up for you again - think of a coin effect that YOU do - and ask yourself - do any of these issues ring true. How can I solve it? Can I solve it? If not, is it really that good an effect? Why am I doing it, if it is not a perfectly constructed effect.
Don't reply that "nothing is perfect", as some Olmpic sports are based off of doing, for example, a dive that has a higher value. I like to only do 10's...as it gives me the chance at perfection...I would hate to fall short of that goal because of my effect selection, rather than my own shortcomings...the former I have no shot at a 10...the latter can be improved upon and strived for.
So - the answer on why you do low quality coin work: You must love showing magic that is imperfect or flawed...or you don't know any better.
And whats wrong with failure? Isn't that how humans learn.
That's my problem with it. If you present it has a "I take this coin and put it here." type of thing, there is no logical reason for WHY you put it there. I am thinking in more of a theatrics kind of way. Now not everybody can do that, but it does make somebody better if they can get past, saying what they are doing. I find magic more enjoyable and entertaining when there usually is a story to it or at least some of a connection to the people you are performing for. (IE: when you have it some meaning behind it, that is usually something that happens to every body.). Now I am problem wrong on that, (which is the case in everything.) but that's the just way it is.
Now when you say that coin magic seems like moves and not actual coin magic. Are you talking about how people can still take minor educated guess and come to conclusion that the coin is in the other hand when you ask them later. And how they didn't really believe that you or other guys actually pulled it from a pocket in the air.
That's my problem with it. If you present it has a "I take this coin and put it here." type of thing, there is no logical reason for WHY you put it there. I am thinking in more of a theatrics kind of way. Now not everybody can do that, but it does make somebody better if they can get past, saying what they are doing. I find magic more enjoyable and entertaining when there usually is a story to it or at least some of a connection to the people you are performing for. (IE: when you have it some meaning behind it, that is usually something that happens to every body.). Now I am problem wrong on that, (which is the case in everything.) but that's the just way it is.
Now when you say that coin magic seems like moves and not actual coin magic. Are you talking about how people can still take minor educated guess and come to conclusion that the coin is in the other hand when you ask them later. And how they didn't really believe that you or other guys actually pulled it from a pocket in the air.
Randy - you are getting flaws mistaken with failure - poor effect selection and the inability to think critically are not performance failures - and really, you have to be intelligent enough to learn from your mistakes.
As for what I am talking about when people watch coin magic - I am talking about how the moves...like hand washing, certain vanishes, and so on...look mechanical. Most "guesses" I see...are not minor, nor are they guesses. I had a lay person describe it to me as LOST LEADERS - you place it in your right hand..it is in your left...you show your left hand empty...it is in your right - as Tyler Wilson says - the audience can say "it's in the other hand" and be RIGHT most of the time.
Call it an educated guess, but it really points at the lack of deception in the methods. I think pulling it from "The air" is one of the childish things that people think in their mind or say, "My kids would like this" - I even can't stand people that produce it from their "sleeve" when all this time we try to tell people that it is NOT up our sleeve. A bit of a contradiction - we want them to NOT believe it is coming from our sleeve, when it isn't - or we do? Either way - why does it come from our sleeve?
I digress, think Randy - see through the BS that you think people believe, when they politely say nothing when you flash or think your words are just odd and annoying...but you call it your presentation, and your moves confused them...so they react, and you feel talented.
As for what I am talking about when people watch coin magic - I am talking about how the moves...like hand washing, certain vanishes, and so on...look mechanical. Most "guesses" I see...are not minor, nor are they guesses. I had a lay person describe it to me as LOST LEADERS - you place it in your right hand..it is in your left...you show your left hand empty...it is in your right - as Tyler Wilson says - the audience can say "it's in the other hand" and be RIGHT most of the time.
Call it an educated guess, but it really points at the lack of deception in the methods. I think pulling it from "The air" is one of the childish things that people think in their mind or say, "My kids would like this" - I even can't stand people that produce it from their "sleeve" when all this time we try to tell people that it is NOT up our sleeve. A bit of a contradiction - we want them to NOT believe it is coming from our sleeve, when it isn't - or we do? Either way - why does it come from our sleeve?
I digress, think Randy - see through the BS that you think people believe, when they politely say nothing when you flash or think your words are just odd and annoying...but you call it your presentation, and your moves confused them...so they react, and you feel talented.
I feel some things can be way too over-analyzed, coin magic is one of those things.
If people enjoy watching, and have a reaction, what's the problem?
Lighten up guys, magic's about fun
If people enjoy watching, and have a reaction, what's the problem?
Lighten up guys, magic's about fun
I feel some things can be way too over-analyzed, coin magic is one of those things.
If people enjoy watching, and have a reaction, what's the problem?
Lighten up guys, magic's about fun
It's very easy to say people are over-analyzing. It's quite another to actually analyze yourself. From one who knows.
As for magic being about fun, I don't know how people expect magic to be taken seriously and advance as an art form when its own practitioners dismiss it as being just about fun and nothing else.
I feel some things can be way too over-analyzed, coin magic is one of those things.
If people enjoy watching, and have a reaction, what's the problem?
Lighten up guys, magic's about fun
Funny - Vernon said, "Magicians stop thinking too soon" - and Tumbleweed, I understand your "years of experience and academic approach" that oozes out of such a comment, may make you believe that we are overthiking...but I will return the back handed comment and say, I think you are underthinking on this one.
Read the first post - think about your coin magic - and realize there is room for growth. Honestly, I don't care if you think your coin magic is SO great - because, I know what people think...I am not afraid to discuss it.
The issue isn't flashing and poor timing - the issue is how weak the deceptive layers and sleights are in coin effects (for the most part). So continue to look at your magic the way it is...never making changes or thinking critically...
If you are progressing - there is no standing still - you will just fade into the background Mr. what's your face.
Thaks for spouting another opinion that is really useless. I would LOVE to meet you in real life and watch your coin work, I bet it is a nightmare.
Haha - I love that, "overthinking" - honestly, trying to share with this forum is like trying to do coin magic...you think you are doing something better than is really being received.
Ok. I got it. You want think like Vernon. Think like a card shark (which is what he was also.). Say to yourself "If this looks like a move, they will drag me outside and beat me to death." apply that to coin magic. The hand washing stuff can be over done and yeah sometimes its used as an over convincer. If you were really to vanish something, you wouldn't feel guilty about and wouldn't have to prove it. Because it would really be gone. So we need to learn to get over Magicians guilt and act more casual/natural with the coin magic.
It goes a long with the old saying " Nothing up my sleeves." if nothing was up your sleeves.. Then why would you try to prove it?
Yeah Randy - your thinking was clouded by a really stupid statement:
Let's just stop - I don't think you are reading or taking any of this in - and everything you say sounds like you are asking if you are right, but also making a bold statement - which reminds me of a story.
I once hung out with some big named' magicians that hadn't seen me perform or do magic. One guy commented on how good I was, and I said - you haven't seen me work - he said, "it doesn't matter, I can tell by the person you are that you are enjoyable to watch". He could tell by the way I carried myself and spoke...as I have gaineed more familiarity with those involved in magic, I can see the things that make them successful and unsuccessful.
For example - I have never seen "Steerpike" perform, yet I know his audiences enjoy him. I have never seen you perform Randy - but I can tell your performances are awkward and lack polish - just by how you have approached this thread.
So - please stop posting - as I think you are confusing yourself more, and wasting my time in trying to help you see the light. I really question your ability to process written text, as you seem to be talking in circles.
Read - think about it for awhile - then think about it some more - than write me - if it isn't to argue or try to tell me what you think - because at this point - I could care less...see, true feedback from your audience.
Later.
Let's just stop - I don't think you are reading or taking any of this in - and everything you say sounds like you are asking if you are right, but also making a bold statement - which reminds me of a story.
I once hung out with some big named' magicians that hadn't seen me perform or do magic. One guy commented on how good I was, and I said - you haven't seen me work - he said, "it doesn't matter, I can tell by the person you are that you are enjoyable to watch". He could tell by the way I carried myself and spoke...as I have gaineed more familiarity with those involved in magic, I can see the things that make them successful and unsuccessful.
For example - I have never seen "Steerpike" perform, yet I know his audiences enjoy him. I have never seen you perform Randy - but I can tell your performances are awkward and lack polish - just by how you have approached this thread.
So - please stop posting - as I think you are confusing yourself more, and wasting my time in trying to help you see the light. I really question your ability to process written text, as you seem to be talking in circles.
Read - think about it for awhile - then think about it some more - than write me - if it isn't to argue or try to tell me what you think - because at this point - I could care less...see, true feedback from your audience.
Later.
You mentioned all the hand washing and so did I. I said that it doesn't look like magic when you do all the over proving because if you really did vanish a coin, why would you try to prove it. The same goes for saying "nothing up my sleeve." if nothing was up your sleeve, you wouldn't feel the need to prove it. Most people tend to over do the "moves" and end up suffering from magicians guilt. I forget who said it, but if you want the people to believe what you did was magic, then you gotta believe it yourself as well.
Those are points we can deal with - the Vernon stuff was a bit over the top.
Moving on - I agree - it seems like overproving - but unnatural overproving. If I really wanted to show my hands empty - I would just open them up and display my palms. Even if you believe it is not there - which I don't disagree is an important factor - your audience is the one that needs to be convinced.
Are you starting to see and understand the complications and inherent problems in coin work?
Moving on - I agree - it seems like overproving - but unnatural overproving. If I really wanted to show my hands empty - I would just open them up and display my palms. Even if you believe it is not there - which I don't disagree is an important factor - your audience is the one that needs to be convinced.
Are you starting to see and understand the complications and inherent problems in coin work?
Well I mentioned the Vernon thing because he was a card shark as well, and if a card shark does anything that looks fishy. Well we already know what will or can happen to them. These things can be applied to coin magic as well.
I do agree that too much of today's coin magic has people trying to over prove that the coin isn't in this hand. The thing is, your audience will be convinced if you are also convinced, and too many magicians have to use those fake convincers in order to prove it to themselves that they aren't hiding a coin here or there.
The main problem tho is the guilt that most develop when they start learning coin magic. If you look guilty, people will suspect you are guilty of something.
I do agree that too much of today's coin magic has people trying to over prove that the coin isn't in this hand. The thing is, your audience will be convinced if you are also convinced, and too many magicians have to use those fake convincers in order to prove it to themselves that they aren't hiding a coin here or there.
The main problem tho is the guilt that most develop when they start learning coin magic. If you look guilty, people will suspect you are guilty of something.
You'll pardon the self-promotion, but there is a demo video of my performance on my website.
It sounds to me like you're just trying way too hard to be poignant and instead creating leaps of logic that could cross the Grand Canyon.
But now you're losing track of the objective.
No it does make sense. If you want it to look like magic, then don't make it look like a move. Card Sharks have to make everything look natural, now apply that to coin magic.