Help Us Stop Magic Piracy

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by j.bayme, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. Bleh.!Piracy can be reported but its not going to stop.!
    You knew it was going to happen when you guys put the dvds out there so why complain.
  2. What if, at the beginning of every DVD or download, the artist quickly explained why it's wrong to expose tricks on the internet, and personally asked the kids not to reveal this trick to anyone?

    I know Danny Garcia has personally sent a webcam video of this sort to at least one guy before who was exposing his stuff on Youtube, and it seemed to work. I think these kids think they're "helping people out" sometimes, and explaining that its stealing from the artist might just make some of them stop.
  3. I love how you just gave a link to an actual torrent.

  4. I don't even know where to begin to respond to the thousand logical holes in the argument you're attempting to make, but I'll start with the comparison that just because a clothing store has shirts on display doesn't mean they allow them to be physically stolen.

    Appreciate everyone who has submitted copyright reports to us - this helps us and it certainly helps all of our artists whose creativity is sponsored solely from sale of their work. More often than not, their livelihood and families depend on it.

    Please continue to report all relevant illegal links and files here.
  5. JB, whenever I try to submit a link, it says that this form is not accepting anymore.. or something along those lines.
  6. This should be locked and sticky.
  7. I would love to see piracy be stop. Unfortunatly its like trying to destroy a tank with a rock. At best your going to make a lousy dent.

    Its sad really because most view it as a victimless crime because the person is not present and its done over the computer. So its easy to steal for a person that you never have to look at without guilt.

    The laws are in place to protect people from somthing like this but the enforcement sucks big time.

    I share the same feelings about it. I cant tell you how badly I want to cry when the money I invested into my collection is easily available to anyone who can click the mouse. So I cant imagine for the artist.

    But the dent will be a start....
  8. How can i report?Am practicing the strike second deal now,and thanks to jason got a good looking one allready in 2 months,well yea practice is the key.So i was looking in the internet of other guys performing strike second deals and this guy made a strike second deal tutorial :( .not cool.
  9. @ Nero: The link has been given above. See this post, quoted below...

  10. In a recent "convention" type program hosted by Luna Shimada and various associates, the question of piracy came to the fore but with a slant; Kellar, Blackstone (Sr), Houdini and most all of the good ole greats each STOLE material if they saw something in a show they liked. The film "The Prestige" does a fair job at showing a tamed down version of how cut-throat things were in those times and to what extremes (sort of) magicians would go in order to go one step beyond the competition... just look at the history of the Sawing in Half illusion or even the variants one can find in gimmicked trunks that more or less do the same exact trick.

    One of the biggest chuckles of the Magic Castle has been the irony of having a "Locked" cabinet containing highly collectible books, in the facility's library area... but then, by today's standards just having such a library breaches "the code"... a very anal retentive and unrealistic code.

    Even 25 years ago magicians were still building props in their garage based on things they saw in other people's shows; some of the best known builders out there were usurping effect systems and manufacturing them without permission let alone any kind of performance royalty being paid to the innovator. Even to date, you can buy workshop plans for effects that legally can't be built by anyone but specified and "licensed" sources. Yet, a few short years ago... about the time most of you were born, it was quite normal to shop things out and find who had the best version of a desired piece for the money one had to cough up.

    Today an Abbott made Thin Model Sawing Cabinet will cost you right at $5,000.00 or so, delivered. However, a more deceptive version of the stock version to the effect via Bill Smith or John Gaughan or Owens is going to run almost double that due to superior construction as well as deceptive finish. The question is, who is in the wrong here... Owen is technically, the only company with legal claim to the effect in that Carl Owen (along with about five other people) designed and developed the piece (the first one built for a certain German girl named Irene)

    Buying a grand illusion is akin to buying a car when it comes to the money out out and sometimes its best to put out the extra dollars and get the "real deal" so as to prevent people from getting hurt... this is what you risk when you buy knock-off props as well as those that aren't built to proper specs. Believe it or not, this can prove the bane of the creator of an effect, not just the thieves... but that's another story.

    My point is... how do you fit the old masters into your sense of perspective given their guilt of theft? How do you classify those of your parent's generation who simply did things as it's always been done... at least into the early 1980s, as the whole royalty and design exclusive points became a hot button issue?

    Magicians are and have always been double-talkers, hustlers & thieves... it's what we do. It's something YOU need to digest and weigh carefully ;)
  11. I will add my 2 cents too.

    I have been associated with several social movements before and I will try to share my experience for the greater good of magic. How you interpret them is up to you.

    The first lesson I learned was never to "Label" people. Don't call them pirates. Don't call them thieves etc. This will just put them in cognitive dissonance. Let me give you an example.

    If I tell you that you are a cruel person because you eat chocolates, use diamonds, eat meat, consume diary, do not recycle, do not use public transports, etc. its not going to change you in any way.

    There are better ways to influence change.

    I saw the form and It has 3 reports. Copyright infringement, Exposure and Something Else. I do not believe you can legally prosecute someone for exposure or "something else".

    Now please understand this: The Laws of the Industrial Era no longer applies to the Internet/Digital Era.

    A lot of people have trouble understanding this. There is no scientific evidence that a "copied" version is a lost sale.

    Unlike in the industrial era, where goods were physical, in digital era the goods are virtual and therefore results in a lot of confusion. For eg, if I buy a car, I cannot make a copy and give it to my friend. If I steal a car, an actual physical car is missing. This has to be replaced at a cost. If I copy a song, both the owner and I have a song. His song is not missing.

    Lets say I steal a car and then never use it. Its just parked in my garage and I just look at it. It still constitutes a theft. But if I copy a video and never watch it, or never perform the trick, the owners still have their video and they can never scientifically prove that its a lost sale.

    Its a sad world we live in, but the fact of the matter is that you cannot change the world. You can only change yourself. Exercise your control and energy over things you can change, not on things you cannot. Even big corporations and movie houses like Microsoft and RIAA cannot stop piracy. Theory 11 is nothing. Dont waste your energy fighting pirates. Focus your resources on your business and growing it.

    Appealing to people's emotions will not help. If I will appeal to your emotions to stop eating meat and consuming diary because it contributes to global warming, ozone damage, loss of freshwater, loss of land quality and destruction of rain-forests will it help? What If I tell you people working in slaughterhouses have 9 times the injury rate of any other profession? What if I tell you that you are cruel and a hypocrite for petting dogs and cats but eating cows and pigs? Will it make you change? No.

    Instead of appealing to people's emotions, appeal to their intellect and add value to them. Create a system they would want to use. Make them want to buy your product.

    Have a look at this video: See how them made people use stairs instead of escalators:


    Also, I urge you to watch this video on how Sony is making money out of copyright infringement:


    The lessons learned are:

    1) Dont try to change the world, change yourself
    2) Dont appeal to people's emotions - add value to their life. People are not cruel, immoral, pirates, thieves, stupid etc. People are a product of circumstances. You may say its just 10 bucks. Internet is a world into itself and for someone across the world it can be 500 units of money. If you are born in a Hindu family, you will not eat cows. If you are a Muslim, you will not eat pigs. If you are born in china, you will eat dogs.

    If you will appeal to people's emotions, they will justify their actions with further emotions.

    3) Time and resources are limited. Use them to grow your business and not to play "whack a mole" with file sharers. Make them obsolete. You cannot shorten a line by cutting it. You can shorten a line by drawing a longer line parallel to it. If you want to catch a thief, run faster than the thief.

    Heres what can be done:

    This is one example of what might work. This is just an example and should not be confused with a business plan.

    Make people want to buy your products. How can Google offer gmail for free? And speaking of iTunes, the reason its successful (apart from ease of use as already mentioned) is because it allows people to buy single songs. Earlier, people had to buy the whole CD on which one song will be good and the rest will be crap and you have to pay for crap too. They recognized why people are copying and changed themselves to suit their needs.

    You need to recognize why people copy magic. And its not because they are pirates, thieves, immoral etc. Because lets face it. Even if they are you cannot do anything about it. You cannot make me "moral" and visa versa. You cannot force morality on anyone.

    You have to be creative. For eg, people could be copying for many reasons:

    1) They are children, enthusiastic about magic and cannot understand the meaning of copyright infringement. They are on a pocket money and lack the money or infrastructure required to obtain a legal copy (Eg No Credit Card)

    2) They may be people who use to buy everything original and lacked the ability to replicate the effects. So they may want to learn the secret - see if they can do it and then put their hard earned dollars in it.

    3) They may be living in a country with unstable governments and postal services.

    4) They may be people who just want to know the secret and never perform magic.

    5) They may be teenagers trying to be 'cool'

    6) They may be people who believe these videos should be free to begin with!


    Once you ask people (market research through an anonymous form or poll) as to why they are copying your videos, learn from them. People are sending in the links. Ask these people what will make them stop.

    Then for eg, change your business model and adopt a "value added model". Sell products and back them with services.

    For Eg, you could have a "Theory 11 currency". People can earn this currency by buying your products legally. DVDs can come with a proof of purchase coupon that can be entered in the site in case you bought the DVD from store. People purchasing from your web site will automatically get it.

    These products can also be supplemented with a special forum only for legal purchasers.

    You can also have a special forum where magicians come and visit frequent and share secrets but only people with certain amount of "T11 Currency" can visit this forum.

    You can have a model of "Selling the product and adding value to it".

    For eg, sell them the oven and make them use it more. They will wear it and will buy more ovens. In other words, sell actual physical goods like merchandise, gimmicks, refills, cards, rings, gears etc and tell people for free or for a virtual currency as to how to use them and wear them out.

    For eg, I have one pack of cards. Teach me and motivate me to use it more for free so I will wear them out and replace them with more.

    You cannot pirate a playing card. or most gimmicks.

    Every quarter, come up with a product that can only be purchased by virtual currency and digital streaming. So this is how it will work. ...continued
  12. ...continued

    All tricks, like passes and 1 on 1 are FREE! People can join the site and watch some of them for no money. Then they will want to watch more of them that are "locked". To unlock them they need to purchase your real DVDs and earn T11 currency. Once they have enough currency another batch for "free" videos will unlock. In order to perform these free videos they would want playing cards, merchandise, etc. They will buy them from T11 and in the process make more virtual currency.

    Once they have 100 T11 currency, they can unlock more videos and watch them online for free. This will create a cycle of legitimate purchases. Also, every quarter, one product will be out exclusive to only T11 currency. You cannot download it, you cannot purchase it with real money. The only way to "buy" them is to earn T11 currency and the only way to do it is to buy legitimate DVDs with gimmicks, cards etc.

    This will significantly reduce copying.

    Also, you may want to make all magic that does not require a gimmick "Free"! Sell gimmicks, cards and merchansize (industrial era physical real goods) and tell people "recipes"/tricks to use them more and wear them out and want to buy more legitimately.

    They will buy from you because:
    - They will get to earn T11 currency
    - They will get a dedicated forum access not available for general public
    - They will get to unlock more free videos
    - They will get to purchase exclusive magic from using this T11 currency

    This is just an example and the whole point is to make people buy your services and make money from what people are already doing rather then trying to change them and appeal to their emotions or morality.

    You can also ask your users to take surveys and collect demographic data and earn some T11 currency for their troubles which they can use to purchase more free videos of their liking. You can use this demographic data to put relevant ads under your videos. You can take ads from local magic dealers, magic shows etc. So if someone is watching a video, relevant ads under the video will tell him a new magic his local dealer has to offer or a new show in town. If you cave 100,000 people coming and watching your videos, anyone will give you ads - even non-magic related businesses.

    You can watermark the videos non-intrusively with the user-name or email id of the user so they don't record it. It can have a 5% opacity and does not interfere with the video itself. Etc.

    There are people who have become millionaires by selling virtual goods. You can make money by selling real goods and services. Its an art.

    Hope it will help to brainstorm some more ideas.
  13. No proof that it isn't, either.

    How about when someone comes up with a crack for T11 currency, and all those videos are available for free? Or just posts all the videos?

    The "car" analogy is faulty and you know it. How about the plans for a building - can we just steal those, too? Is the architect supposed to work for nothing? Or Windows 7? That's just "information" too, isn't it? Can we pirate that as well?

    When you buy a CD or DVD, you don't "own" the content, you license it. By purchasing it, you agree not to copy it among other things (read the fine print). That's a condition of the sale - if you can't live with the terms, don't buy it.

    When you copy it, you're breaking the agreement. It's that simple. People can rationalize and justify it as much as they like, but that's the bottom line.

    Sure we can - there's laws against murder, rape and extortion, for instance. Prostitution (even with mutual consent), vigilante justice, hate speech, bookmaking on football and discrimination are also against the law, and clearly based on morality.

    I think that we're heading toward content staying on the publisher's sever, and you'll log in to see it. Especially with niche markets like magic - I'd wager that the volume of magic video sales is small enough that piracy will overtake it before long.
  14. My view isn't popular.

    I'll likely get flamed, but here it is.

    It's not about morality for me. I've bought many 1 on 1 videos. Theory11 is one of the first places I hit to learn something new. That's because I can buy, d/l, and own whatever I get from them. I don't share my videos, ever. I have paid for everything I have, and I don't share.

    My reasoning is this: I cast an economic vote for every video I bought. By letting someone else see the video and learn the effect, I now have one economic vote representing us both. I've just given up half the value of my vote. I won't do that.

    Most of the effects I've watched on T11 have a video that demonstrates the effect. I decide if I want to buy the video off of that demo. I once have bought a video here that I didn't like (of the 15 or 20 I have). I changed the effect some and used it anyway.

    Long story short, I hate buying access to videos on servers (Dan and Dave). I like their effects, and I feel they are worth the money. However, what stops them from closing up shop tomorrow and leaving me stuck w/o access to my videos? Nothing.

    So I cast economic votes at places that do it the way that works. I buy my vids, d/l them, and use them myself. I don't share them. I learn the names of the effects I use, and tell people where to find them.
  15. I'm obviously confused...

    So let me make sure I understand your argument. The people that "steal" magic either don't have money, access to infrastructure to transfer money or goods, don't understand they are stealing, just want to know the secret based off someone figuring it out for them, want to be "cool," or want it without paying for it because they think it should be free to begin with. Is that your argument?

    The reason I'm checking is because you then tell T11 to invest in selling products to :
    people that don't have infrastructure to pay for it
    don't have money
    don't understand what theft is
    just want to know the secret
    don't have a stable government/postal system
    or think the video explanation should be free to begin with

    Do you understand business at all?
  16. I am really sorry to say that the people who responded to my post have not done justice to what I wrote or took the time to review it properly.

    I speak from experience of trying to change people's lifestyle. And during the last 5 years I have learned some lessons the hard way.

    I am in no manner whatsoever condoning theft. People who create work must get paid for it. But sometimes they are not.

    I just wanted to take 2 steps back, take a deep breath and analyze why.

    Please reread what I wrote, Including the videos that I posted.

    The bottom line is that its happening. And posting on this forum will not make it go away. The smart thing to do would be to understand why they are doing it and try to add value to their life and make money out of it. Ranting on a forum will not make it go away.

    Theory11 is a business, not a charity. Its primary motive is to make money, everything else is secondary. I don't buy that its out there "To Advance the Art of Magic". There are better ways of advancing the art, for Eg making free videos and accepting donations. That's what charity is. If they are not doing it, its business. And it doesn't matter what you sell - products or services, its a business and they have the right to protect their investments.

    The only valid argument raised was: What is the T11 currency gets hacked?

    It'll be difficult to do it. More difficult than normal copying. Can I hack your t11 forum account? Very difficult.

    Also, what if these videos get pirated? For that reason I suggested a non-intrusive watermark system to trace the recorder. Even if it happens, it raises the bar for the copier.

    This is a very confusing topic so it makes it easier for the file copier to reduce their cognitive dissonance.

    The rules of the digital era are different.

    Since these forums are visited by people of all ages, its hard to find the intellectual matureness of the debater. So I will leave it at this since I found no merit in the objections raised and they were rather childish. The posters did not even bothered to read it.

    Instead of a "Report a Pirate link" there should be an anonymous questionnaire asking people questions like:
    How many copied videos do you have? 0 - 10 10 - 20 20 - 30 30+?
    Do you share copied videos online?
    Do you share them with magicians only?
    Are you a professional?
    How often do you perform?
    How much money you make?
    Will you buy bundles at a discount?
    In no more than 50 words describe what can make you buy them in an ideal world?


    Lean from these statistics. Maybe some insight will help minimize copying. You may be surprised that it may not be about money at all. Maybe its something you can fix and the problem can be solved for all intent and purposes.

    In the end my suggestion will be this. If file sharing is proven for your individual business to eat away up to 5% of your profits, you can write it off as a business loss and focus on growing your business. If its damaging more like 40% etc. Then you need to take a tough look at the business model and find out what can reduce it.

    I have great respect for T11 and the people associated with it and the last thing I want is to see their business harmed.

    I believe someone already produced the proof. Please backtrack. Scientific studies have been conducted on this.

    People are purpose driven for most parts, not profit driven. Knowing their purpose can help us understand their psychology and why they do it.


    For eg, I know someone who purchased Smoke and then uploaded it to a Video sharing site. All of it. And this is not a second hand copying. I was wondering why? Why would someone pay for it, rip it and then upload it. I have my opinions. But I am not sure if they are true.
  17. very interesting thread..piracy is a theft and we should avoid it..
  18. wow you really get the point , i'm with you , i think what you just wrote on your last posts is pure gold.

    the first thing and most importan is YOU CANT CHANGE THE WORLD thats real, its impossible to do it the humans cant be transformed,
    what you should do is GET OVER IT and by that i dont mean forget it , i mean have a perspective from above analyze the problem and then TAKE FROM IT.

    the idea of having a currency is phenomenal , selling goods (as in real goods) is safer for your business, nobody can or will change the digital era, you should just TAKE ADVANTAGE of it.
  19. hmm...I wonder if T11 realizes that A pirate would not buy the effect anyways...Oh well keep up the good fight...

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