Totally Out of Control - Better left unreplicated?

Sep 1, 2007
1,395
8
37
Belgrade, Serbia
@Prae: I totally agree that you can't (or it is very very VERY hard) to personalize Queens and TiVo. It is even harder to involve audience in it. But that is because D&D tricks are like that, just like you said earlier. I don't like their tricks either.
But my guess is that tricks from TOoC are totally different, and that you can personalize them.

I understand why are you thrown of from those tricks, because every friend of yours is doing them. I guess i would be too, but i don't have that many magic friends.
But on the other note, there are so much more magicians in Sydney than in New Zealand, but there are that many more spectators also ;)


@Zapper: Well, i guess i am surprised ;) Don't forget, we were one country once ;)
And you are right about exposure stuff and advertising magic. But i don't think it came to our part of the world in that amount, like it is in USA, so i think we are safe for like another decade or so ;)
Not a single soul here in Serbia has heard of True Astonishments, so i guess i will just perform those effects and be safe...
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
@Prae: I totally agree that you can't (or it is very very VERY hard) to personalize Queens and TiVo. It is even harder to involve audience in it. But that is because D&D tricks are like that, just like you said earlier. I don't like their tricks either.
But my guess is that tricks from TOoC are totally different, and that you can personalize them.

I understand why are you thrown of from those tricks, because every friend of yours is doing them. I guess i would be too, but i don't have that many magic friends.
But on the other note, there are so much more magicians in Sydney than in New Zealand, but there are that many more spectators also ;)


@Zapper: Well, i guess i am surprised ;) Don't forget, we were one country once ;)

Yeah, you've got a point there. You're very right though about my first post, it kinda switched focus. I'm drawn off TOoC as a personal choice because it will be popularised. Is it so silly of me to not want to perform something that thousands of others perform? It's not like I'm choosing to perform weaker magic. I'm just performing different magic. And yet, this seems to be a sin (especially because I posted this here about a T11 product). Don't perform mainstream magic? No way! Hey guys, that guy knows about products outside of T11! Bash him up!

...But I guess the second thing was just an encouragement to be original as well, because there's not enough of it.

Incidentally, I never noticed you were from New Zealand! You're not actually that far away from us huh... xD
 
Dec 10, 2007
126
0
Slovenia (Europe)
Your from Serbia? Missed that.

Yes, I am kind of happy. I can not imagine the situation in the States. However, internet is still for everyone, and whoever wants to learn magic, needs like 10 minutes of his time.

I even got a chain messege "learn how to tie your shoes without your hands", an explanation video of The Self tying shoelace, which was circling around. Painful :(. I really would like a solution to exposure. Really.

-Seb
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,395
8
37
Belgrade, Serbia
Yeah, you've got a point there. You're very right though about my first post, it kinda switched focus. I'm drawn off TOoC as a personal choice because it will be popularised. Is it so silly of me to not want to perform something that thousands of others perform? It's not like I'm choosing to perform weaker magic. I'm just performing different magic. And yet, this seems to be a sin (especially because I posted this here about a T11 product). Don't perform mainstream magic? No way! Hey guys, that guy knows about products outside of T11! Bash him up!
This paragraph explains your point more than all 4 pages of this thread together ;)
And you are absolutely right. But according to this, there is not much that anyone can say. That is your opinion, and you are not attacking anybody, and i guess that everyone agrees with you.
Just as I said, these were just 4 pages of misunderstanding ;)
...But I guess the second thing was just an encouragement to be original as well, because there's not enough of it.
Again, so very true. I have a problem with originality, but I'm working on it, lol
Incidentally, I never noticed you were from New Zealand! You're not actually that far away from us huh... xD
Nope, I'm not ;)
Maybe I didn't phrase it well lol. I was just referring to Jon's post.
But you are right, New Zealand, and Australia cannot be more close to eachother lol

@Zapper: Yeah, it is available for everyone, but magic as an art or form of entertainment isn't that popular here, so i don't think that many people will even want to learn magic...
Just like wrestling and baseball :(
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
*Curses* Sorry Toby, I haven't slept properly for 3 days. My bad.

Although you are right about something, it's just my opinion, nothing more. I haven't intended to attack anyone, despite my disappointment at some of the replies. People are free to disagree, though I will try to defend my opinion. But it's certainly no guideline to how others should act.

Possibly the only thing of Sinful07's I agree with: If you don't like it, don't buy it. I'll keep going my merry way, and those who want it will go theirs.
 
Sep 20, 2008
1,112
3
actually prae, that wasnt from me. i think i jacked it from Sinful. (the moderator)

Really, one of us should change our names.. *hint hint*



anyways:


The implication simply is this: If you don't understand what I'm saying, as many haven't, don't criticise me for saying it. Don't criticise me for something I'm not arguing. If you do, yes, I have no qualms saying this, you're an idiot.

As a rebuttal- If you would want to present an organised and valid debate, kindly explain yourself FULLY and CLEARLY before pressing that 'post' button. Not only does it make you an ass correcting yourself later on, but you're also wasting everyone's time.

By doing that, you're like that bastard tour guide whom we ask: "where is the nearest cafe?" and you'd opt to say "Its just around the corner."

Later on, We'll come back to you and ask the same question. You'd say "Oh sorry, its actually the other way around."

Notice the difference? If you Stopped and thought for a second about where is the precise location of the goddamn cafe in the first place, you wouldnt have us 'idiots' coming back to you asking for directions.

I'd relate it onto the topic at hand, but i feel that you are civilized and intelligent enough to comprehend my presented analogy. It was either that or a talking monkey and a donkey. Dont ask, its the first thing that came to my mind. Penguins.


Anywho as a last note, there is a difference between a discussion about a topic and discussing it. Whilst criticism is directly aimed towards the CRITICAL points of a certain topic, a discussion can merely be the discussion of a product.

If you'd want to Criticize a droplet of blood you'd say:

"That Drop of blood contains X amount of plasma, Y amount of WBC and Z RBC. it weighs approximately X amount."

If you wanted to discuss it, you'd just say:

"****, someone on their period?"

wait wait, bad example. Sorry, couldnt resist.

"Blood is coloured red. =D

Notice the difference between critically analyzing blood by tearing down its components and presenting it rather than just discussing blood? ah, Good. And im steering wayyy off topic.
 
Aug 5, 2008
36
0
Guys, I know I've posted many times in a row and I do apologise. But I'm really shocked at how much people have just completely missed or ignored in my original post. There are so many messages people have completely skipped in favour of simply criticising my post with replies which completely miss the point. I expected to cop a few replies, but please, before you criticise or insult me, re-read my original post. You're only making an absolute fool of yourselves.

Whilst there may have been some who have skimmed through the pages "in favour of simply criticising my post with replies which completely miss the point", I believe the majority of the people who have viewed this thread have read through every post thoroughly.

I'd like to point out that this is a forum, and the people who have disagreed with you were merely expressing their opinion. There are two sides of a coin. Some have welcomed Theory11's move to put TOoC on DVD, whilst others like you are dismayed by it. I cannot help you if you are holding out for world popularity. You should not be so quick to pass judgment and label one as "making an absolute fool of yourselves" should they decide to criticise your opinion.

I see both your point, and that of those who have disagreed with you. I myself am one who has a preference for non-mainstream sources, but you're making a terribly huge mountain out of a tiny ant-hill. You've made your feelings known, and the others respect that. I see that you've painstakingly made efforts to respond to most of the replies you've received, judging from the many lengthy posts you have made. You are concerned about being different, yet so much practice could have gone into the time you used making such lengthy posts.

I, just like most others here, am contributing my opinion. I come onto the forums from time to time, and I have seen some of the better posts you have made. I like the way you think as a magician, and you have earned my respect as one. However, you seem to carry yourself in an arrogant way, and the lack of humility is something everyone finds extremely distasteful.
 
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Sep 20, 2008
1,112
3
Who says its coming out anyways, (besides the Theory 11 staff.. but They're magicians, THEY LIE, LIARS!)

*Cough* There's no set release date, so you can dance around and be happy till then Prae! (i know that isnt the point, but i just wanted to point that out. teehee!)
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
David Blaine's first special was structured entirely on effects that were decades old. Did that affect how his spectators reacted? Did that affect how the world reacted to the special?

Not a bit.

First off, David's magic at the time was also looked down upon by some as being too simple. Magicians don't use what works nearly as often as they think they do.

Second, there is a massive difference between David Blaine and a horde of teenagers who have never had an original thought in their head.

Are you serious dude, whats your outlook on magic man think about it, your performing tricks to astonish audiences... personally I have fun with even the most simplest trick that is a million years old used by every magician on earth, you know why because of the reactions!! like houchin said thats what drives us thats whats keeps us going ...not that the trick is so underground and no one knows about it : / screw that its all about the experiece you leave your audiences with for me thats the fun in magic.

Thank you, Fred Rogers. Now stop and consider that exercising a cliche isn't always fun.

e.g. how many times have you seen the cups and balls routine?(more than once?) i'm sure a lot of layman has as well. yet, david regal performed a cups and balls routine based on marshmallows and hot chocolate. pouring out hot chocolate from a cup at the end of the routine. surprised everyone!

Actually, that supports the argument of the thread proper rather than your counterargument.

Honestly, this thread is totally useless, nobody knows the difference.

Considering you typed a reply that sounded like a hipster with a head wound, I don't think you're in a good position to tell me or anyone else what is useless and useful.

Audiences don't. they don't watch the magic industry and buy the new dvd's to catch you.

What does that have to do with anything?

Honestly, I only read the first post because I know that the rest would be mindless blabble :)

You know what that makes you? Smarter than me.

But I'm really shocked at how much people have just completely missed or ignored in my original post.

Which means you made the mistake of expecting something of magicians.

Whilst there may have been some who have skimmed through the pages "in favour of simply criticising my post with replies which completely miss the point", I believe the majority of the people who have viewed this thread have read through every post thoroughly.

I don't. Most people on message boards just skim the first post and assume their thoughts are so fantastic they'll be the end-all of the thread. It's a combination of ignorance, laziness, and arrogance, and the internet is a fertilizer for all three.

I'd like to point out that this is a forum, and the people who have disagreed with you were merely expressing their opinion.

Often in ignorant ways at best, and magnificently stupid ways at worst.

Let's not defend the ignorant, shall we? They need to be taught.
 
Sep 1, 2007
117
0
33
England
Spreading GOOD magic should always be looked upon as a good thing

Yes it should. So why don't you just sell the book? I've never had any problems learning from it.

it doesn't matter whether something is a book or a DVD or even a smoke signal.

See, so why make a DVD if it's already a book which you could have just stocked on your shelves and shared with everyone. Is it possibly because you know that a load of people are going to buy this for the sole reason that it's the latest T11 DVD rather than because they think it's good magic?

By your own arguments I see no reason for a DVD and I agree with the first poster, this only stands to make TOoC a less desirable item. I bought it for much more than it's worth when it was out of print and delighted in the secrets I was being let in on that very few others knew about. Then there was a reprint, which I actually thought was a good thing, as more people would be able to enjoy the book in the same way I did. This DVD however just kinda feels like an attempt to squeeze some extra sales out of some stuff that's already available.

It has been said that the best way to keep a secret in magic is to publish it in a book. The secrets in TOoC DESERVE to be kept, not just ripped and put on the first torrent site available or exposed by poor performances on youtube. I'm not saying that everyone who buys the DVDs will do these things, but there are those that do and they almost exclusively seem to buy the latest DVD releases.

I don't think that a DVD release will stop TOoC being good, but it will stop it from being special, and it is currently one of the few magic compilations I would say that about.

Tom
 
D

Deleted member 2755

Guest
Yes it should. So why don't you just sell the book? I've never had any problems learning from it.



See, so why make a DVD if it's already a book which you could have just stocked on your shelves and shared with everyone. Is it possibly because you know that a load of people are going to buy this for the sole reason that it's the latest T11 DVD rather than because they think it's good magic?

By your own arguments I see no reason for a DVD and I agree with the first poster, this only stands to make TOoC a less desirable item. I bought it for much more than it's worth when it was out of print and delighted in the secrets I was being let in on that very few others knew about. Then there was a reprint, which I actually thought was a good thing, as more people would be able to enjoy the book in the same way I did. This DVD however just kinda feels like an attempt to squeeze some extra sales out of some stuff that's already available.

It has been said that the best way to keep a secret in magic is to publish it in a book. The secrets in TOoC DESERVE to be kept, not just ripped and put on the first torrent site available or exposed by poor performances on youtube. I'm not saying that everyone who buys the DVDs will do these things, but there are those that do and they almost exclusively seem to buy the latest DVD releases.

I don't think that a DVD release will stop TOoC being good, but it will stop it from being special, and it is currently one of the few magic compilations I would say that about.

Tom

Believe me when I say the book is already in torrent form. You can't stop piracy no one can.If something is put it, it will be be downloadable no matter what.

I'll also tell you that Kenner wanted to put out a TOOC DVD for a while. Whether or not he wanted to make one before Theory 11 was thought of, I don't know. However, I do know that he wanted to put out a DVD before Theory 11 went live. Over a year ago.

Again, the DVD will have new effects, new handlings, new ideas, and everything the original book had as far as content goes. Personally, I'm hoping that TOOC inspires people to read more books because it will show the people that only buy DVD's what kind of magic can be in books.

I've got news for you, TOOC is no longer a secret. Almost every person on this forum already owns the book.
 
It's not like spectators know that a ton of other magicains around the world do the same tricks. Magic is all about spectators, so what does it matter? As long as you're giving them an amazing expierence, then you're doing your job.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,241
1
I've got news for you, TOOC is no longer a secret. Almost every person on this forum already owns the book.

WOW. That has to be one of the most illogical posts I've ever seen. Not even close to being true.


All this talk about years and years of refinments. Where are those refinments in the tooc 1on1s? The only one I see is 5 Speed, and I'm sure it didn't take him twenty years to change the ending.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
It's not like spectators know that a ton of other magicains around the world do the same tricks. Magic is all about spectators, so what does it matter? As long as you're giving them an amazing expierence, then you're doing your job.

The fact of the matter is that most of the people here can't deliver that kind of experience.

For all the big game talked by those with a counterargument, I doubt that many of you are out there in the real world performing as often as you would like us to think. And you're not as in tune with your audiences as you might think you are.
 

jonraiker

vp of development
Team member
Aug 5, 2007
1,330
24
Florida
instagram.com
To be blatantly honest, it's CK's material and he has every right to publish it in DVD form - if he so desires (which is the case). If you write a legendary book and decide to retain it solely in written format, it's your right to do so. Chris felt he had refined and developed different pieces enough to reproduce the book in a more visual format. Simple as that.

Likewise, everyone has every right to choose whether or not to purchase a product. But to desire to keep something incredible from being spread to others that are truly inspired to pursue and study this art form is not in the best interests of the future of this industry. CK has worked for almost 15 years refining, polishing, and redefining the material within TOOC. I consider it an honor and a privilege to be able to learn from the product of that journey. And I'm excited to do so.

I find it ironic that I haven't really seen any of these threads arise from the depths regarding True Astonishments. Has the material in the acclaimed Art of Astonishment series (which we all recommend on a regular basis) lost all value, as well? Of course not. It's just as special. It's just as acclaimed. And the variations and nuances within the DVD series are amazing.

Four books from which we can never use anything from ever again - all because the original creators decided to produce them (with additional ideas and refinements) in video format? Of course not.

First off, David's magic at the time was also looked down upon by some as being too simple.

By who? 117 magicians? Or the millions upon millions who were inspired, touched, and impacted by the astonishment he spread through the airwaves? If you're performing for yourself, if you're performing for magicians, then you're in the minority. I perform for spectators. I perform to spread astonishment. If I can be original along the way, great. If I can be unique along the way, great. But my goal is to impact my spectators - not magicians, not myself.
 

Michael Kras

{dg} poet laureate / theory11
Sep 12, 2007
1,268
3
Canada
www.magicanada.myfastforum.org
This is very, very true, and extremely sad to think that many "magicians" do not have knowledge that extends past Ellusionist, Theory11, or the "new and hot" of magic.

Is it really true that these people call every existing transposition effect "Tivo"?
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
By who? 117 magicians? Or the millions upon millions who were inspired, touched, and impacted by the astonishment he spread through the airwaves? If you're performing for yourself, if you're performing for magicians, then you're in the minority. I perform for spectators. I perform to spread astonishment. If I can be original along the way, great. If I can be unique along the way, great. But my goal is to impact my spectators - not magicians, not myself.

That wasn't my point.

We can talk like altruists looking out only for our audiences all day. But in the process, we're going to miss everything else.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Again, a lot of posts, so I'll reply to some of the main ones that have been critical of my post, but thanks to everyone for their input. This post is again too long, so I apologise in advance for double posting to get to some posts. Part 1 of 2.

actually prae, that wasnt from me. i think i jacked it from Sinful. (the moderator)

Really, one of us should change our names.. *hint hint*

anyways:

As a rebuttal- If you would want to present an organised and valid debate, kindly explain yourself FULLY and CLEARLY before pressing that 'post' button. Not only does it make you an ass correcting yourself later on, but you're also wasting everyone's time.

By doing that, you're like that bastard tour guide whom we ask: "where is the nearest cafe?" and you'd opt to say "Its just around the corner."

Later on, We'll come back to you and ask the same question. You'd say "Oh sorry, its actually the other way around."

Notice the difference? If you Stopped and thought for a second about where is the precise location of the goddamn cafe in the first place, you wouldnt have us 'idiots' coming back to you asking for directions.

I'd relate it onto the topic at hand, but i feel that you are civilized and intelligent enough to comprehend my presented analogy. It was either that or a talking monkey and a donkey. Dont ask, its the first thing that came to my mind. Penguins.

Anywho as a last note, there is a difference between a discussion about a topic and discussing it. Whilst criticism is directly aimed towards the CRITICAL points of a certain topic, a discussion can merely be the discussion of a product.

If you'd want to Criticize a droplet of blood you'd say:

"That Drop of blood contains X amount of plasma, Y amount of WBC and Z RBC. it weighs approximately X amount."

If you wanted to discuss it, you'd just say:

"****, someone on their period?"

wait wait, bad example. Sorry, couldnt resist.

"Blood is coloured red. =D

Notice the difference between critically analyzing blood by tearing down its components and presenting it rather than just discussing blood? ah, Good. And im steering wayyy off topic.

Haha, yes you should change your name. *cough*

First half: I'm sure that'd be true except that: Half of you have understood the topic perfectly as I wrote it. Half haven't. Why is this? If the implication is I should've written it clearer, how come lots of people have posted intelligent rebuttals to my post? I'm happy to engage in argument. I understand what you're saying, but I find it confusing in the sense that many people have actually understood the topic at hand. It's the ones who've said 'zomg yeh lyk ur wrong jus dun buy it. cheese iz yellow not green' who've completely missed the point. Most people who've attented a well structured argument such as jonraiker have understood the topic perfectly and have put up great arguments.

Second half: Might I ask where this is directed? I want to be sure before I comment on that ^^

Whilst there may have been some who have skimmed through the pages "in favour of simply criticising my post with replies which completely miss the point", I believe the majority of the people who have viewed this thread have read through every post thoroughly.

I'd like to point out that this is a forum, and the people who have disagreed with you were merely expressing their opinion. There are two sides of a coin. Some have welcomed Theory11's move to put TOoC on DVD, whilst others like you are dismayed by it. I cannot help you if you are holding out for world popularity. You should not be so quick to pass judgment and label one as "making an absolute fool of yourselves" should they decide to criticise your opinion.

I see both your point, and that of those who have disagreed with you. I myself am one who has a preference for non-mainstream sources, but you're making a terribly huge mountain out of a tiny ant-hill. You've made your feelings known, and the others respect that. I see that you've painstakingly made efforts to respond to most of the replies you've received, judging from the many lengthy posts you have made. You are concerned about being different, yet so much practice could have gone into the time you used making such lengthy posts.

I, just like most others here, am contributing my opinion. I come onto the forums from time to time, and I have seen some of the better posts you have made. I like the way you think as a magician, and you have earned my respect as one. However, you seem to carry yourself in an arrogant way, and the lack of humility is something everyone finds extremely distasteful.

I have no problem with being disliked, or having people dislike my opinion. What I will not tolerate is people criticising me for opinions that I do not have. The only people I have called idiots are people who have tried to argue a nonsensical point. I'd say that's fairly silly, wouldn't you?

There's one thing to disagree with someone's opinion.

It's quite another to have no idea what the person is saying, but attempt to disagree with them anyway. I've had posts calling this thread useless amongst other things, without a single clue what the topic was actually about. I'm sorry, but if someone calls something they don't understand useless, I will call them an idiot and I stand by that remark.

It's funny, because I've made threads like this before. What has happened? All the knowledgeable members have agreed with me. Then, I make a thread like this about a Theory11 product. And what happens? Well, firstly, all the knowledgeable members hold a great and proper debate with me. But secondly, lots of really unconsidered posts have been made by people trying to appear to have intelligence. Maybe they felt offended when I criticised a lot of people for unoriginality. Maybe they realised they were unoriginal and felt offended. Who knows. But in the former, they would ignore the topic and move on. In this latter case, they post something silly.

There are some posters on the other hand who have disagreed with me and made some great points. I have tried to address them, which may or may not have been successful, but certainly some posters have made great counterarguments against me, which I accept.

I do appreciate your comments about me and my posts greatly.

And lastly for your post, I'd like to apologise unconditionally if I appeared to be arrogant to guys such as yourself. As I said earlier I stand by the comment that an idiot is one who argues something they do not understand but pretends to have that knowledge; to everyone else, if I have appeared arrogant, I apologise.
 
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