Gimmicks are WRONG?

[Sir FansAlot]

Hehehe...yeah.

I wish there was a sound when I read posts like this. Boo Boo Pe Doo.,

 

[RealityOne]

So are we then to dress up the full spectrum of our emotions and opinions in baby talk and platitudes so as to avoid offending some hypothetical ingenue?

Or do you mean to suggest that you think Will actually has some personal vendetta against retarded people and is taking it out on us?

***

Do they actually think that the various demographics and minorities want or need a faceless army of cliche-spouting randoms to speak in their defense?

Such an unenlightened opinion from such an intelligent person. I don't think the choice is between denigrating a group in the guise of humor or engaging in baby talk and plaitudes (but I applaud your amusing attempt to discredit my opinion by twisting what I said into a ridiculous extreme). Rather, there is a middle road called discretion. Will's comment was completely gratuitious. The post clearly expressed Will's point without that comment.

I do not think Will has a personal vendetta. In my opinion, I think he merely exercised poor judgement.

I actually do think that various demographics and minorities need someone to speak up when someone else (intentionally, through the exercise of poor judgment or due to not knowing any better) speaks or acts in a manner that denigrates that demographic or minority. Look up eugenics on Wikipedia and see what can result when people remain silent.

I don't believe what I am saying is a cliche. I know too well that the world is not, as you say, all "puppies and rainbows." That doesn't stop me from pushing people to act with dignity and respect for others.

It is obvious that you recognize the power of words. Words shape people's perceptions and opinions and those perceptions and opinions shape people's words.

 

[Kris Deagle]

That being said, I understand your frustration. A couple of weekends ago, I performed some effects for my wife's parents. Some of those effects required hours of practice and some difficult slights. What effect most impressed my wife's dad? It was a "Do as I Do" effect I casually did when a commercial came on during a television show we were watching. No major slight of hand, no intricate gimmicks it took hours to make and the same patter I've used since I first learned the effect. The amount of effort put into learning an effect isn't necessarily related to the strength of the effect in the spectator' view.

Yes, you understand. And while it may be frustrating that he liked such a simple trick the most, at least you know it wasn't a gimmick doing the work for you. As simple as "Do As I Do" is, you can still mess it up if you do the steps wrong or they don't follow your instructions and since it is such a simple trick, you can focus more on presentation and yet still be doing most of the legwork (I say most because the spec does the other half).

Anyway...something smells funny around here...

 

[Steerpike]

Look up eugenics on Wikipedia and see what can result when people remain silent.

Oh Jesus cross-dressing Christ on a bike! You just had to invoke Godwin's Law on a day when I don't have any booze in the house. Thanks a lot, *******. And you had to rub it in with an asinine slippery slope argument.

Keep in mind you have just taken a sledgehammer to any credibility you may have had in this argument.

I don't believe what I am saying is a cliche. I know too well that the world is not, as you say, all "puppies and rainbows." That doesn't stop me from pushing people to act with dignity and respect for others.

Do you also want me to stop using the term bastard? I mean, who is going to stand in defense of all the bastard children out there raised by single parents? How about calling someone a son of a *****? Or just a *****? Am I still allowed to call someone a mother****er, or do I owe the state of West Virginia an apology?

 

[James Smith]

Truth be told, I hate winning arguments here. It's too ****ing easy and I don't learn a goddamn thing in the process. Like I said, I'm not the dumbass in the room and that bothers me.

Quite frankly, I'm amazed I get away with half the **** I do. The only person who smacks me down with any regularity is Brad Henderson. And he has enough experience under his belt that I still can't believe he deigns to acknowledge my existence. I push pretty hard, but precious few actually push back.

Some don't have cojones, some can't and some just plain can't be bothered.

Put your ego down boy. It serves you no good here. The only kick you've had is a good one into the seat of your pants.

If it makes you feel any better, I still think your an egotistical asshat from time to time.

No, without me, this thread wouldn't be half of what it is today. Deny it all you want but no-one can argue with the truth, I made a post so people decided to get up me for it, if I didn't make the post, there would be nothing for anyone to get up me for and it would be stuck at 5 pages long or wherever I joined. Sorry but this one you cannot win.

And that's all that really matters.


Good for you. You want a f***ing cookie now?

A man dressed in tight fitting leather pants with a studded, leather jacket draped over his shoulders covering a tight fitting wife beater. In his gloved hands is a riding crop which makes a loud snapping sound each time it slaps his palm. Across his chest painted onto the wife beater is the word, "Cookie"


In a deep burly voice he asks, "Did someone order a Cookie?"

Quality over quantity.

If you win at the special Olympics even though you go home with a gold medal, at the end of the day you're still retarded.

I agree with everything you've said in this thread, but that's just not cool dude.

Rev

Oh please that internet meme is older then my mother. Another thing is it is just a line of words, they only gain any power when you give it power. It's like Racism, it is only offensive to the one who perceives it as offensive. Catch my drift?

True, but the words used reflect the attitude of the person using them and encourage a similar attitude among others who do not know any better... unless someone speaks up. A person may choose not to be offended by the words, but the attitude of the person speaking the words remains offensive.

How young is your mother!?!?


And i never said i was insulted, just calling people a retard and putting down the achievements of those who compete in the special olympics all at once is really low.


Rev

Was it your intention to generate controversy? If not, then don't be so quick to congratulate yourself.



So are we then to dress up the full spectrum of our emotions and opinions in baby talk and platitudes so as to avoid offending some hypothetical ingenue?

Or do you mean to suggest that you think Will actually has some personal vendetta against retarded people and is taking it out on us?



Hyperbole. Gotta love it.



Should I hand you a kleenex or a tampon?

I don't get why some people think the rest of the world appointed them as their keepers. Do they actually think that the various demographics and minorities want or need a faceless army of cliche-spouting randoms to speak in their defense?

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Are you retarded?



I bet you didn't know a few days back it was national Retard day. It was the day that the people who fund the special olympics petitioned to ban the use of the word Retard in media.

What a stupid move on the retards part. They are putting the word retard in the same class as nigger. But wait lets stop and think about what is different. Nigga or nigger is used by the blacks to address each other. It is a powerless word now, African American's have embraced the word and brought it to a level where it is no longer offensive to most African Americans and is almost as powerless as the word **** used out of it's definition, you know like as a common expletive.

If the mentally handicapped embraced the word instead of drawing negative connotations to it, it would become novel and noneffective. Before you get the idea that I am for using derogitory terms I will say this, I don't actively say them in day to day life because they do nothing to add to my speech.


Same thing could apply to your magic words all have meaning, but some are more powerful then others. If you don't believe me, look up Kenton Knepper.

*mutters to himself* God that was a terrible attempt at a save.

Dude what hell did you just say?

Do good I am english at speaking.

You’ve got to be kidding me. I’ve been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It’s just common sense.

Your a ****en troll aren't you.

Hehehe...yeah.

I wish there was a sound when I read posts like this. Boo Boo Pe Doo.,

Such an unenlightened opinion from such an intelligent person. I don't think the choice is between denigrating a group in the guise of humor or engaging in baby talk and plaitudes (but I applaud your amusing attempt to discredit my opinion by twisting what I said into a ridiculous extreme). Rather, there is a middle road called discretion. Will's comment was completely gratuitious. The post clearly expressed Will's point without that comment.

I do not think Will has a personal vendetta. In my opinion, I think he merely exercised poor judgement.

I actually do think that various demographics and minorities need someone to speak up when someone else (intentionally, through the exercise of poor judgment or due to not knowing any better) speaks or acts in a manner that denigrates that demographic or minority. Look up eugenics on Wikipedia and see what can result when people remain silent.

I don't believe what I am saying is a cliche. I know too well that the world is not, as you say, all "puppies and rainbows." That doesn't stop me from pushing people to act with dignity and respect for others.

It is obvious that you recognize the power of words. Words shape people's perceptions and opinions and those perceptions and opinions shape people's words.

Yes, you understand. And while it may be frustrating that he liked such a simple trick the most, at least you know it wasn't a gimmick doing the work for you. As simple as "Do As I Do" is, you can still mess it up if you do the steps wrong or they don't follow your instructions and since it is such a simple trick, you can focus more on presentation and yet still be doing most of the legwork (I say most because the spec does the other half).

Anyway...something smells funny around here...

Oh Jesus cross-dressing Christ on a bike! You just had to invoke Godwin's Law on a day when I don't have any booze in the house. Thanks a lot, *******. And you had to rub it in with an asinine slippery slope argument.

Keep in mind you have just taken a sledgehammer to any credibility you may have had in this argument.



Do you also want me to stop using the term bastard? I mean, who is going to stand in defense of all the bastard children out there raised by single parents? How about calling someone a son of a *****? Or just a *****? Am I still allowed to call someone a mother****er, or do I owe the state of West Virginia an apology?

I think gimmicks are a-o-k.

 

[RealityOne]

Oh Jesus cross-dressing Christ on a bike! You just had to invoke Godwin's Law on a day when I don't have any booze in the house. Thanks a lot, *******. And you had to rub it in with an asinine slippery slope argument.

Keep in mind you have just taken a sledgehammer to any credibility you may have had in this argument.?

Actually, I was referring to the eugenics and the laws it inspired in the United States which has nothing to do with Godwin's Law except for the fact that those United States laws were used as a defense at Nuremberg. The eugenics laws I was referring to are actually pertinent due to the targets being "retards."

Sorry, my credibility remains intact. As for not having any booze, that is just a lack of planning on your part. Come on, anyone could have predicted you would need it if you logged on T11. And you call yourself a mentalist...

Do you also want me to stop using the term bastard? I mean, who is going to stand in defense of all the bastard children out there raised by single parents? How about calling someone a son of a *****? Or just a *****? Am I still allowed to call someone a mother****er, or do I owe the state of West Virginia an apology?

There is a difference between using a word in context and using it out of context. Those uses are out of context, unless of course you are talking to someone from West Virginia. Also, you are assuming I am objecting to using the word "retard." While not politically correct, that isn't what bothered me. What bothered me was the sentiment of the comment that put down the efforts of "cripples" and "retards" to compete in the Special Olympics in light of their disabilities.

That being said, you could stop using those words and be a little warmer and fuzzier.

 

[Kris Deagle]

I think gimmicks are a-o-k.

I find this post humorous.

 

[Steerpike]

Actually, I was referring to the eugenics and the laws it inspired in the United States which has nothing to do with Godwin's Law except for the fact that those United States laws were used as a defense at Nuremberg. The eugenics laws I was referring to are actually pertinent due to the targets being "retards."

Elaborate.

There is a difference between using a word in context and using it out of context. Those uses are out of context, unless of course you are talking to someone from West Virginia. Also, you are assuming I am objecting to using the word "retard." While not politically correct, that isn't what bothered me. What bothered me was the sentiment of the comment that put down the efforts of "cripples" and "retards" to compete in the Special Olympics in light of their disabilities.

To which I would argue that there is no joke that goes too far. Only too soon. Everyone has the right to offended and they shouldn't need anonymous legions online to speak in their defense regardless of whether or not they want it.

Besides, it's a ****ing joke. If you think he's picking on retarded people with that joke, you need to dial back the sensitivity. I honestly can't stand political correctness. It's insulting to my and everyone else's intelligence.

That being said, you could stop using those words and be a little warmer and fuzzier.

Give me a reason.

 

[RikAllen]

While not politically correct

If you're not in politics, does political correctness even matter? Curiosity.


I use gimmicks. I use sleight of hand. My audience loves to be entertained.

 

[KeoSilver]

Such an unenlightened opinion from such an intelligent person. I don't think the choice is between denigrating a group in the guise of humor or engaging in baby talk and plaitudes (but I applaud your amusing attempt to discredit my opinion by twisting what I said into a ridiculous extreme). Rather, there is a middle road called discretion. Will's comment was completely gratuitious. The post clearly expressed Will's point without that comment.

Yeah this is true, the last part of the post was put in there to add a little bit of humor. It was fine until someone with a stick shoved up their ass decided now to be offended of a cliche that is older then me then raise an issue about it.

I do not think Will has a personal vendetta. In my opinion, I think he merely exercised poor judgement.

So you are trying to control other people's opinions and then reprimand them for having a bit of humor. Forget about it.

Yeah he did make a poor judgment he forgot there are self righteous bastards abound who are completely dull and void of internet personalities or personalities even worth noting. But with that said it is your opinion, and it's my job to tell you my opinion onto why I don't agree with your opinion.

I actually do think that various demographics and minorities need someone to speak up when someone else (intentionally, through the exercise of poor judgment or due to not knowing any better) speaks or acts in a manner that denigrates that demographic or minority. Look up eugenics on Wikipedia and see what can result when people remain silent.

First of all Wikipedia is the worst place to get direct information, it is however a great place to start and further your research to more sound information. So onto your main point, you are saying that the minorities need an outside source to stick up for them.

How ****ing degrading is that? It's so American as well, everyone wants to be the next hero. The reason I feel it is degrading is for the reason that you feel that the minorities don't have the strength to stand up for themselves and defend themselves. You're wrong they have a voice just like you, sure you can support them but you don't talk for them! The only way I can see this not being degrading is if you are literally mentally retard (that is a medical term or does wikipedia leave that out as well?) are you? Are you in the demographic? If not, shut up, you self righteous prick.

I don't believe what I am saying is a cliche. I know too well that the world is not, as you say, all "puppies and rainbows." That doesn't stop me from pushing people to act with dignity and respect for others.

Hmm? I made a joke about BDSM, called people retards, called mothers whorse and yet you are trying to dispel the one you call intelligent, when obviously I am the one you should be worried about if the above statement you made is indeed what you are truly after. I think the hero needs to re-evaluate their priorities or stop spewing BS, whichever comes first.

It is obvious that you recognize the power of words. Words shape people's perceptions and opinions and those perceptions and opinions shape people's words.

Wow can anyone say Circle?

*Some dude in the crowd yells CIRLCE!*

**** your couch!

I like that couch!

Well go home marry it and **** it some more and enjoy the rest of your life, power to the people!

YEAH!!

 

[Kris Deagle]

Kris Deagle: Shut the hell up. You don't know what you're talking about.

Steerpike: Shut the hell up even more. Can't take you seriously without all of your cursing.

As for everyone else, please stay on topic. This goes mainly for Steerpike and Kris;

Since when did we start talking about "Gimmicks vs. Impromptu from a magician's point of view" to ["politically correcting the word "retarded""]. Really?

Both of you grow up and stop arguing. It's senseless, and a waste of your time because you aren't accomplishing anything.

I know Steerpike, you are going to come back with some sarcastic smartass remarks and some of these "*****". I honestly don't give a crap. Do whatever you want. But I'll be laughing my ass off when Raiker closes this thread because of you 2. I think I'm done here.

Take care to everyone else who DIDN'T make themselves look like an ass.

And DaveyG, BEST POST EVER.

Cheers,

Casey Rudd

You sir, are a bit late. Steerpike and I haven't talked about that in a while. Catch up. The topic is now about political correctness and racism and the such like.

 

[KeoSilver]

Kris Deagle: Shut the hell up. You don't know what you're talking about.

Steerpike: Shut the hell up even more. Can't take you seriously without all of your cursing.

As for everyone else, please stay on topic. This goes mainly for Steerpike and Kris;

Since when did we start talking about "Gimmicks vs. Impromptu from a magician's point of view" to ["politically correcting the word "retarded""]. Really?

Both of you grow up and stop arguing. It's senseless, and a waste of your time because you aren't accomplishing anything.

I know Steerpike, you are going to come back with some sarcastic smartass remarks and some of these "*****". I honestly don't give a crap. Do whatever you want. But I'll be laughing my ass off when Raiker closes this thread because of you 2. I think I'm done here.

Take care to everyone else who DIDN'T make themselves look like an ass.

And DaveyG, BEST POST EVER.

Cheers,

Casey Rudd

GOD DAMN YOU STEER!

*pouts*

You get all the credit Bye!

*Scurries off*

 

[William Draven]

oi vay.......

 

[RealityOne]

Elaborate.

Although I normally don't quote Wikipedia....

During the 20th century, researchers interested in familial mental disorders conducted a number of studies to document the heritability of such illnesses as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and depression. Their findings were used by the eugenics movement as proof for its cause. State laws were written in the late 1800s and early 1900s to prohibit marriage and force sterilization of the mentally ill in order to prevent the "passing on" of mental illness to the next generation. These laws were upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1927 and were not abolished until the mid-20th century. All in all, 60,000 Americans were sterilized.

In 1907 Indiana became the first of more than thirty states to adopt legislation aimed at compulsory sterilization of certain individuals. Although the law was overturned by the Indiana Supreme Court in 1921, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of a Virginia law allowing for the compulsory sterilization of patients of state mental institutions in 1927.

Beginning with Connecticut in 1896, many states enacted marriage laws with eugenic criteria, prohibiting anyone who was "epileptic, imbecile or feeble-minded" from marrying. In 1898 Charles B. Davenport, a prominent American biologist, began as director of a biological research station based in Cold Spring Harbor where he experimented with evolution in plants and animals. In 1904 Davenport received funds from the Carnegie Institution to found the Station for Experimental Evolution. The Eugenics Record Office (ERO) opened in 1910 while Davenport and Harry H. Laughlin began to promote eugenics.​

To which I would argue that there is no joke that goes too far. Only too soon. Everyone has the right to offended and they shouldn't need anonymous legions online to speak in their defense regardless of whether or not they want it.

Besides, it's a ****ing joke. If you think he's picking on retarded people with that joke, you need to dial back the sensitivity. I honestly can't stand political correctness. It's insulting to my and everyone else's intelligence..

The only reason humor is effective is that the audience is able to relate to it. I didn't agree with the sentiment that I took from Will's statement (i.e. that no matter how hard someone with disabilities tries and/or succeeds that they will be continued to be defined by and only by their disabilities). I was not offended for people with mental disabilities, but I think that the underlying sentiment is wrong. As a result, it was not humorous to me.

Yes it was a joke, but it was (in my opinion) in poor taste. My original post on this topic was about how words influence opinions and opinions influence words. I don't think anyone is disagreeing about that.

That being said, I agree that political correctness in some areas (i.e. removing the word "poverty" from laws and replacing it with the phrase "with hope") has gone to far. However, I see no place for a joke denigrating people with disabilities in a magic forum.

Give me a reason.

I thought long and hard on this and came up with nothing.

 

[Kris Deagle]

I did mention political correctness in that post. Get with the program and actually read it.

And KeoSilver, if you want some credit too, well, here you go.

KeoSilver, shut the hell up too!

Just playing, I don't find you bad at all.

It looked like you wrote it while PMS'ing so I ignored it.

 

[Reapx]

oi vay.......

i totally agree with that statement.

 

[RealityOne]

So you are trying to control other people's opinions and then reprimand them for having a bit of humor. Forget about it. Yeah he did make a poor judgment he forgot there are self righteous bastards abound who are completely dull and void of internet personalities or personalities even worth noting. But with that said it is your opinion, and it's my job to tell you my opinion onto why I don't agree with your opinion..

I appreciate your insight to my parentage and personality. Both are incorrect.

Why is it you always call me self-righteous when you disagree with me? Does that actually work with other people?

You are correct that it is my opinion. I'm not trying to control anyone else's opinions (unless you consider reasoned discourse a method of mind control).

First of all Wikipedia is the worst place to get direct information, it is however a great place to start and further your research to more sound information. So onto your main point, you are saying that the minorities need an outside source to stick up for them.

How ****ing degrading is that? It's so American as well, everyone wants to be the next hero. The reason I feel it is degrading is for the reason that you feel that the minorities don't have the strength to stand up for themselves and defend themselves. You're wrong they have a voice just like you, sure you can support them but you don't talk for them! The only way I can see this not being degrading is if you are literally mentally retard (that is a medical term or does wikipedia leave that out as well?) are you? Are you in the demographic? If not, shut up, you self righteous prick.

What you're saying is that anyone can make a denigrating comment about any class and only people of that class can express their opinion? Really? That doesn't seem quite fair. My expressing my opinion isn't mutually exclusive with others who fall within a class expressing their opinions.

Hmm? I made a joke about BDSM, called people retards, called mothers whorse and yet you are trying to dispel the one you call intelligent, when obviously I am the one you should be worried about if the above statement you made is indeed what you are truly after. I think the hero needs to re-evaluate their priorities or stop spewing BS, whichever comes first.

Don't be jealous of Steerpike. It's not healthy. I'm sorry, but you are not a concern to me because it is obvious that no one takes what you say seriously due to your bombastic, but eloquent, style.

Wow can anyone say Circle?

Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. If you are saying that my logic is circular, you don't understand what I am saying. What we hear people say influences how we think about things. After we have formed an opinion, what we say evidences how we think about things. It's only circular if you listen to yourself talk.

 

[KeoSilver]

I appreciate your insight to my parentage and personality. Both are incorrect.

Why is it you always call me self-righteous when you disagree with me? Does that actually work with other people?

You are correct that it is my opinion. I'm not trying to control anyone else's opinions (unless you consider reasoned discourse a method of mind control).

Don't be a smart ass now and condradict your professionalism, you don't want to soil your bronze star. *shines it for ya.*

I called you self righteous because you felt the need to insert your opinion on a harmless joke that has been said time and time again.

What you're saying is that anyone can make a denigrating comment about any class and only people of that class can express their opinion?

No I said they can stand up and defend themselves.

Really? That doesn't seem quite fair. My expressing my opinion isn't mutually exclusive with others who fall within a class expressing their opinions.

You know I was once considered mentally challenged and by some I probably still am, I have the meds to prove it. You are not challenged or have never been called by a doctor mentally impaired but you taking up a defense against retards like me voluntarily is so self righteous in my eyes. Did I ask you to defend me? Did I ask for your help? That is the misconception, mentally challenged people don't want your pity! We Value our independence, plus the ones who need help from day to day life probably can't read or comprehend the comment that this entire cluster **** was started with.

Don't be jealous of Steerpike. It's not healthy. I'm sorry, but you are not a concern to me because it is obvious that no one takes what you say seriously due to your bombastic, but eloquent, style.

Tell me why shouldn't I be jealous? He is working for real audiences and getting paid. I am not. He has age (No offense) and knowledge that I don't have now. If you are basing your opinion of him off of what he posts, you are not only self-righteous but shallow.

Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. If you are saying that my logic is circular, you don't understand what I am saying. What we hear people say influences how we think about things. After we have formed an opinion, what we say evidences how we think about things. It's only circular if you listen to yourself talk.

Thanks for clearing that up and dumbing it down to my level of thinking.

 

[Kris Deagle]

Political correctness is politically correct.

 

[scarecrow1]

All I can say is get back on topic and stop talking about politics and racism. Do any of you really believe you can change someones opinion on an [size=+3]INTERNET FORUM!!![/size]. Get back on topic. Period. This is ridiculous and pathetic. (not talking about you RealityOne, I'm talking to some other guys) Put your big egos down and talk magic. MAGIC!!!! Geez....