Is Cardistry just "Showing Off"?

Discussion in 'Cardistry & Flourishing Forum' started by ZachMueller, Sep 8, 2009.

  1. OH believe me, I've heard some amazing solos, that I definitely consider art. Although I do agree when you bring it together with other instruments, it becomes awe-inspiring.
  2. I realize this and I agree. There are times where solo's without other instruments are fantastic. However; it's not something often heard by some instruments.
  3. Straying a bit of topic now, first off I have a very Middle aged in thinking, I really only consider the true arts to be: Painting, Sculpture, and Architecture. Now in the 18th century the fine arts were introduced which are Music, and Poetry.

    Art and artists are very modern, did you think the Early cave people cared if the murals left behind on cave walls were considered art? No they didn't care it was a form of communication and a necessity all real traditional art comes from that background. IMO BBL
  4. #64 visualartist, Sep 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2009
    You take the "show me,dont tell me" quote literally.
    It was a general thing. You guys can yap all you want about how artistic flourishing but outside these forums no one knows and nobody will care.
    You have to show people its an art.
    You think a art history teacher tells students about art and not give them a visual representation of what it is? Magic has been acknowledge as an art by the media for centuries because the magicians allowed them to SEE it as such.
    Talking about it isnt gonna make a person realize that its art. Because as it stands,its showing off.
    And if you remember the point of the original post,was that that only flourishers call it art. Everyone else,showing off.
  5. Sorry but lets get over something first.

    You guys have a wrong definitition of Art. Really, is a word that a lot of you guys throw around very easily, and is something very serious.

    It all come to the muses, they were 6 and they represented "art" in the greek mithology.

    I dont quite remember the names but they stand for:

    *Plastic arts: this includes painting in sand, photography, sculptures, and thing of the like.


    *Theather: there were two muses for this one "melpemone" representing drama and "thalia" representing comedy.

    *Dance (terpsicore)

    * Lyric poetry ( Erato)

    There is a reason of why cinematography is called the "seventh" art :rolleyes:.

    Anyway, the definition that we have of "art" is very vague and its something that I hate. None of us really knows what art means and yet we throw it away like candy because it makes our thing what we do and other things to sound cooler.

    People and media doesnt consider it art, only we magicians consider it art. Most people compare us with witches and fortune tellers and things of the like, they do not consider magic an art.

    We are enterteiners.So please stop throwing the word around.

    There has been Dancers and dances that expressed something witouth music, same with instruments. Same with paintings, same with theatre.

    You guys are comparing flourishes with the kind or theatre or dances or music that we are used to these days, witouth knowing where it all began.

    Doing card flourishes, on its own, it cannot be art, with music and the right mood it can be an artistic way of expressing something, but witouth that, you are just moving cards around.
  6. RDChopper? I'd like to set one thing straight in what ye posted: There were 9 muses in Greek mythology:

    Calliope - Muse of epic song
    Clio - Muse of history
    Euterpe - Muse of lyric song
    Melpomene - Muse of tragedy
    Terpsichore - Muse of dance
    Erato - Muse of erotic poetry
    Polyhymnia - Muse of sacred song
    Urania - Muse of astronomy
    Thalia - Muse of comedy

    The daughters of Zeus and Mnemosyne were nae only of the art, but also science; though one could reffer to them as "inspiration".

    I do agree with what ye stated about art, as long as it refers to only the Belle Arts; for art can be many things (of course, most times it is said to make "entretainment" sound better), like cooking (known better as culinary ARTS; studied and worked in the business), martial ARTS,...
  7. #67 RDChopper, Sep 11, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2009
    Actually (and oficially) they are 10, even further, the mithology says that they are even more, like 13, some even say that they are not daughters form zeus but rather from apollo.

    The 6 muses that I specified are the ones that the experts in this area(and in those acient times) used to define the 6 (now 7) types of art.

    Jesus. Next time you try to correct me try to read carefully the context in wich Im using my examples.
  8. Shotgun the erotic poetry muse.
  9. Seems a bit hostile in here after the Greek Mythology. None the less, opinions opinions... That's what the Greek's believe and it wont be what the rest of the world lives by or believes.
  10. Okay so here is my true opinion.

    Flourishing is it just showing off? I have yet to see anybody do cardistry that wasn’t showing off. Like Zack stated in his discussion with his friend Stamp collectors show off to other stamp collectors, flourishers make movies to show off to other flourishers. Do I think flourishing was made for showing off? Yes I do. Furthering I do not consider this necessarily a bad thing.

    Do I think that the majority of the flourishing videos art? *shakes the magic eight ball* Sources say no. I am sure it is art to other flourishers but to the outside observer it looks like showing off.
    However if the flourishers actually took the time and plan the video completely through ie blocking body movements, creating a choreographed routine then yes I think the video may have a chance at being artsy.

    If you had absolutely no music for a flourishing video is there still a way to convey emotion? Yes, body language, facial expression. Interpret dance is an example I am going to use. The dancer is dancing without music but is still conveying emotion through movements of his/her body. I am pretty sure if flourishers spend endless hours perfecting very technical multiple packet cuts, they will not have any problem with learning basic body movements to help convey something to the audience.

    Lets come to grips here Cardistry without magic is a form of juggling, I accept juggling as an art form because the majority of jugglers out there make it an art form with the exception Cardists.


    Videos linked just for fun.

    Switching a little now

    I completely agree that we are entertainers and performers. I really do not consider much of modern magic an art. Especially this new stealth snake style of magic, walking up to someone performing an effect and moving on, you want anything to be art it has to involve art to begin with.

    Cardistry/magic=Performance art? Possibly, magic/cardistry can really only be considered performance art if the theatrics are focused on more then the effect itself. When I say theatrics I do not mean glitz and glamor like lights fancy music and etc. I mean theatrics by your performance character, personality, speech, blocking, audience interaction, and most of all Subtext what your character is feeling internally.

    Now with that said my conclusion is this, Cardisty, Magic, Card Cheating, Gambling is not art. Art is Performance, Painting, Sculpting, etc.
  11. Depends, according to the source; but ye mention "oficially" as if whichever source ye choose is the non plus ultra. I reffereed what Hesiod (8th century BCE poet, lived at the same time as Homer) notes about the muses in his Theogony. For instance: "the Muses of Olympus, daughters of Zeus who holds the aegis"
    Who is yer source?

    As I said:
    For, after all, those 6 arts are exactly that: the FINE arts.

    I'm merely correcting what was said idly, not the point ye reffered to, not the fact that yes, the word is thrown around just like so. From what I read here I always took ye to be mature and reasonable in yer arguments, as well as smart enough to listen; please don't prove me wrong.

    The above is all with the respect that ye deserve and the one I expect in yer reply.
  12. Its a sport at least if anything.
    And thats still a stretch.
  13. Understood. :). Sorry my bad.

    By the way, faded temp is not about " hey! thats what greeks believed in! why should we do the same?"

    As alfvallarta said, mmm, you could say that those are the standards that define the fine arts, and it's still used today as a way to talk about them.

    Jesus, we need a lot of culture around here ;)
  14. #74 FadedTemp, Sep 11, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2009
    edited: nevermind.
  15. I think that, going back a few pages that Cardistry isn't a form of self expression unless its a flourish you've come up with yourself. doing Lethal or the Molecule Cut looks good and everyone want to learn it, but if everyone learns it then how can it be self expression?

    I love flourishes, I mean just look at my Avatar! But that picture is me half way through a flourish I've come up with. I'm not saying that I invented any of the moves, its just a load of moves that I think good being stuck together and I'm always adapting it.

    I mostly don't just perform flourishes, and when I do i explain it afterwards as showing off.

    It is no doubt performance art, but only in the right setting. I think DM says somewhere in a book or DVD that if he's booked for magic then the hardest thing he'll do is an overhand shuffle, but if he's ever booked for flourishes then he'll really big it up.

    I think that flourishes and Magic go well together, especially when one of the spectators says "wow, do that again!"

    Hope this helps,

  16. I don't know why are we talking about this, you like magic, i like flourish, you perform magic, i show flourish, thats all. Nothing else.
  17. you don't think it's important?
  18. I didn't read any posts at all, just the title.
    So nobody kill me when I say that: Yes. Yes it is.
  19. OOOh, you know he dead... not from me, i don't care about what people think of as "art" but i am sensing some fire coming your way...

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