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Discussion in 'Cardistry & Flourishing Forum' started by ZachMueller, Sep 8, 2009.
I was at my dad's friends birthday party, (hes 41), and one of his friends had seen me do some magic at a poker game we have every once in a while.
After we were done eating and siting at the table talking, the guy asked me to do a trick for his wife. I pulled a deck of cards out and started flourishing, which is what i normally do to warm up. My dad was sitting to the left of me and said, "ok, ok enough with that, show them a trick" (my dad not being a big fan of flourishing) but the guy who wanted to see the trick said, "No no let him show off this is awesome" Everyone else at the table started watching and saying, wow how can you do that. I went on to perform a couple effects, which i have to say they loved.
My point is, yes i think its showing off, and no its not for everyone. But it can be entertaining for some people.
Wow sorry guys, I was in a tween-teen crisis? ???!?!? Anyway it seems as though I was harsh, but 8 months later (6/15/10) I still regard cardistry as an art. Here is the what art is "the expression of an appealing and beautiful craft". Well within the perimeters of what you see flourishers do.
Just a note that cardistry is not "art"
Well by definition is not art if you get my meaning.
I don't know what the problem is with you guys but you throw the word "art" like candy these days, and I bet that most of you doesn't even know what "art" means.
And no. " is where you express your feelings or something or a message through the manipulation of something else" is not a definition.
Well, I would say that on some level, I think it can be a performance art, just as I would count a dance routine as art. But you're right, your point on throwing around art is a good one. Makes me think about the performing "arts" in general - theatre, dance, etc.
Beauty and art are in the eye of the beholder.
One man's trash is another man's treasure.
What I don't consider art, other people might not. What I consider art, other people might not.
Let's not start this debate all over again.
Then why don't you tell me YOUR definition of art? I'm really curious to see what you say.
..............and no i don't get your meaning -_-. You are making all of these points without explaining anything. Can you explain why?
P.S: I don't throw candy, I eat it.... and I hope you do too.
Actually I have spent like 5 years studying about the matter, and I can safely say I don't have a definition for art yet. It is actually something very complicated to understand and to explain.
That's why I hate people throwing the word around so much. As I say, most of you guys doesn'y even have a clear idea of what it is.
Praetoritevong pretty much just hitted the nail. In my opinion of course.
By the way I don't like jokes (especially when they aren't funny) when we are discussing about something that I actually care. How old are you?
....and so I'm guessing that age would be relevant? That wasn't meant as a joke....it was a simile. And alright then, so if you are unsure of this matter, then why are you posting about it?
BTW: I'm 13, don't worry...I'm not a premature baby or anything else that you're trying to point out by asking my age
Well, after all this years trying to discover what art means, I can safely say wich things "aren't" art.
You didn't get it. And by your response I figure that you are like 13 years old. Have a great week buddy.
EDIT::// Yep, I nailed it! =3
Yurp, this is what I was talking about, prejudice against my age. Saying "You didn't get it" doesn't really explain anything or answer my question. It just shows how ignorant you are. Maybe you could EXPLAIN why I didn't get "it"?
Yeah, you said you spent 5 years and have not found the definition for art. Yet you can tell the difference from what is art and what is not art?!? You're slipping.
I think one of the main problems with cardistry as a performance art is that it's difficult to express meaning. For example, your performance would struggle to be a narrative, due to a lack of character, for a start.. It is obviously hard to give the cards a character, due to a lack of distinguishing features identifying each one. Nobody is going to be looking out for our hero, the eight of clubs; that would be ridiculous. However this isn't an unsolvable issue by any means. Why not simply have multiple people collaborating on a cardistry show? Whilst it is by no means unheard of to do a solo performance, it is much more common to have theatre and dance performed by a group. Picture, for example, a small child sat with a tatty old deck of grubby cards, slowly and jerkily doing a three packet cut, when all of a sudden a smart man with perfect posture strides past doing a huge packet display with a pristine deck of smoke and mirrors. Just from that, I expect you could start telling me about these people. Furthermore, you have the basis for a narrative, which would be otherwise impossible to do with cards. Now this may not be what everyone had in mind, but you can certainly see how it is taking cardistry and starting to build something that may be seen as art out of it.
Just another issue I see is that of size. If, for example, a dancer wanted to portray a huge monster, for lack of a better example, they could spread their arms wide and stretch every inch of their body to give an idea of size. This is much harder with cardistry, as you are limited by how many packets you can hold or whatever, but again, not an unsolvable issue. Just one possible solution would be using multiple people as one person or object. Here I reference you to the dance 'Bird Song' by Siobhan Davies, most notably the section entitled 'Snake 1' (I'm having difficulty finding a video, but if I do I'll update this post). In this, a group of eight dancers work together to give the impression of one long snake. Why could the same ideas not apply to cardistry?
I feel that, at the moment, it is not an art, nor is that looking like changing. However, as I hope I have shown with this brief medley of ideas, which I am quite literally making up as I go along, it has the potential to be something more, should people choose to take it in that direction. I can't foresee anybody choosing to do this in the near future, but it could theoretically happen. What I've typed here is coming from the point of view of an actor and dancer, so I'm going to see it in a different way to some other people, but even if you don't like the ideas given here, I hope you can see that it has more potential than people are giving it as an art.
Incidentally, I may have just become the first person to ever offer suggestions for giving cardistry character
Your not the first person , the first person whom I have known to openly say it is Ambrose.
Anywho, yeah its totally possible to express yourself. That is how you determine your own style. That style is noticable when you distinguish cardists such as D&D and De'vo. A much different style and both parties which have a different perspective of it. Kind of like the different genres of writing or the different categories of music.
But yes, you're right. Different flourishers can express themselves differently through their flourishing, and it's not just by what they do with the cards.
From my own observations card manipulation has largely developed from contact juggling. Toss in things like club twirling, pen spinning and regular juggling and a deck of cards and voila, XCM.
It is juggling. Personally I think it's also just showing off, but that's my opinion. I can understand why people develop an unusual skill, and that doing so brings them some form of satisfaction and that in itself is a good enough reason to do something if you ask me. But be honest with yourself, don't try to justify your obsession by saying that flipping cards around is, in itself, art.
Personally, I don't think flourishing or XCM on its own is art. Mainly this is because my own definition of art is something that expresses one's self. What can you express with flourishing? Other than the fact that you have a lot of time to perfect an esoteric skill.
The very fact that only other flourishers really appreciate flourishing limits its ability to be expressive. I run into the same problem with poi. I am a very technical spinner when it comes to poi, and other spinners often remark on my precision, but lay audiences don't care that I can do a hyperloop in the middle of a weave, to them it's just fire being swung around. Luckily for me, that's enough for many people, but they don't actually appreciate the amount of skill I've developed over time. How could they? I don't consider poi to be art. It doesn't express anything.
Flourishing might be a tool with which one could create art, but on its own it's just a display of skill. No more an art than parkour, knife throwing or fire breathing.
Interestingly the parkour community has this exact discussion relatively regularly, and from what I've read, the common belief amongst traceurs is that parkour IS an art, because it is expression - expression through movement (this is what they are saying, not what I am saying).
Is painting showing off? Sculpting? Gymnastics? Skateboarding?....yes Cardistry is showing off but it's not just showing off.
That's my take on this without reading through 11 pages.
Art is: a superior skill that you can learn by study and practice and observation; "the art of conversation"; "it's quite an art"
the products of human creativity; works of art collectively; "an art exhibition"; "a fine collection of art"
I rest my case.
That's kind of disrespecting. Maybe you are saying something that already got owned on page 6 or... I don't know.
That's just plan arrogant, if you want to make a point or contribute something to the thread I suggest you read what others have to say first.
Cardistry is showing off but not only showing off? I do not follow you due to lack of a point.
Painting and sculpting are different to Gymnastics and Skateboarding. Gymnastics and skateboarding are a sport, just like juggling period. Sure, if you are a gymnist or skateboarder, what you do is an art. But to the outside observer, it aint diddly squat.
Also, I firmly believe that this "Argument" has been dispelled before. I think RD covered it.
Man how I hate it when people use dictionary definitions for something as specific as magic as a performance art. Little heads up, Dictionaries are written by english scholars and not by the ones that are actual artists. Last time I checked, people with a phd in English are not Modern day Mozarts.
EXAMPLE of how these english people screw up, I give you the example of the definition of Siphon in the Oxford english Dictionary.
If you are actually going to attempt to debate, bring your own actual thoughts and opinions and not ones fabricated by hairless apes locked in a room.