Does Coin Magic...

[The Tumbleweed]

Funny - Vernon said, "Magicians stop thinking too soon" - and Tumbleweed, I understand your "years of experience and academic approach" that oozes out of such a comment, may make you believe that we are overthiking...but I will return the back handed comment and say, I think you are underthinking on this one.

Read the first post - think about your coin magic - and realize there is room for growth. Honestly, I don't care if you think your coin magic is SO great - because, I know what people think...I am not afraid to discuss it.

The issue isn't flashing and poor timing - the issue is how weak the deceptive layers and sleights are in coin effects (for the most part). So continue to look at your magic the way it is...never making changes or thinking critically...

If you are progressing - there is no standing still - you will just fade into the background Mr. what's your face.

Thaks for spouting another opinion that is really useless. I would LOVE to meet you in real life and watch your coin work, I bet it is a nightmare.

Haha - I love that, "overthinking" - honestly, trying to share with this forum is like trying to do coin magic...you think you are doing something better than is really being received.

I do appreciate the post, but I really never intended to get dragged into the whole argument side of things. I have a light-hearted approach to my magic, but that doesn't mean I'm not trying to improve, or not learning new things.
I'll be the first to admit that my coin magic is crap, and there is definitely room for growth, but during that growth I wanna have as much fun as possible, and not analyze every detail on the way. I hope you see where I'm coming from. We obviously have varying styles of magic, I'm all about the entertainment, you seem to be about the astonishment, and that's great!
I'm not really in the mood for an argument, basically because I'm on your side.
See you round

 

[blahblah]

okay okay... emotional hook.

well for my card magic (I dont do much coin stuff) I talk about me as part of the presentation, ill show you what I mean.

"okay well you know I used to go to another school? yeah well at that school we always used to play poker at lunch, we would use small amounts of money, so most of us would cheat, we all cheated in differant ways, but I often won. Thats because in my lap I would take out a deck of cards like this {I take out a deck of cards and put the case back in my pocket}.
now in poker, whats the best starting hand you can have? yeah, its an ace ace, so I would get out two aces. The only problem would be getting the deck back into my pocket without them realizing. I would do it like this.
{I press the deck down and the cards vanish exept for two - two aces}.
So at this point I have my aces, of course, the deck never really vanished, it just went back to my pocket".
{I take out the case and inside is the deck}.

so that would be my presentation of the p:h vanishing deck. I think what makes it special is how I talk about something im intrested (gambling/cheating at cards), so instead of a boring "the card goes in here boom its on the top", you take them and show them a way that you would cheat.

so for coin magic you could try and use your own intrests with the magic.
so if your intrested in... angels, you could perform an "angelic" routine, like twilight, and maybe talk about angels.

Then you are expressing yourself through the magic. (or has this already been talked about? im not sure, I havent read the whole thread).

 

[Morgan B]

Hey Tumbleweed - not trying to argue - just trying to educate. I don't want you to think I don't worry about the entertainment side of things - as I know the value of magic being entertaining, but it also needs to fool. If you only focus on one side, this is a concern - as I don't see them as mutually exclusive.

Therefore Tumbleweed, realize I am not trying to pull you into an argument - but into a discussion ot make you think about your magic...it sounds like it may not hurt you. All the best analyze their magic.

Blahblah - no disrespect, but read your own post. In it, you talk about something NOT related to our topic, you talk about a card presentation (that isn't bad, but not great, as it seems sloppy) and then thoroughly admit you haven't read this thread...

perhaps I should re-write this one - but really - you could have read the first one - as this is the launching pad for the following pages.

Can you do the same thing - but with a coin effect - and make it logical, sort of like you did with the vanishing deck.

 

[blahblah]

I have read the first post, and a few pages after that... it just gets a bit, big.

ill try and think of a presentation for a coin trick that might work.

 

[Morgan B]

It is ALOT - not to be arrogant, but focus on my posts - as these are the thoughts and responses that will matter to you...I hope.

Look forward to your thoughts - thanks for taking the time

 

[Sinful07]

Its rather amusing as i read Randy's reply and think of my own,then read the post below it (Steerpike's) which defeats the idea of posting-Because he said what i wanted to say in the first place.

I have nothing to contribute in the discussion, though may i point out that i do enjoy reading through the thread, even though im merely spectating.

Cheers,

-Sin

 

[MattSmithies]

One of the best coin routines I have seen is mark leveridge's broke if you have seen the performance everything is so well structured, its the second performance video on his site. The patter fits perfectly with what he is doing and its coherant all the way through I wish I could perform that well!

matt

 

[blahblah]

- the performer shows a coin, and gets it signed -
"have you ever been cheated out of money? I have and I know how it feels so ill show you how to fool them, look".
- the magician takes the coin and puts it in his hand -
"see it goes in here, now the coin artist may say, "now where is the coin" and the spectator will probabbly say, "its in your left hand", he will then be asked to bet on how much he thinks its in the left hand, £5, £10 whatever, but he then shows its really in the right hand, this is of course through sleight of hand, look ill show you again".
- the magician takes the coin and does the exact same thing -
"ill show you again, is what the hustler will say, now where is it?"
- the spectator, points to the right hand -
"now heres the clever thing, it really is in the left hand this time, see"
- the magician shows the coin is the left hand, and throws it into the left hand once more -
"now, its been in the right, its been in the left, whiich hand is it in now?"
- the spectator points to the left/right -
"okay, now thats intresting, you didnt happen to feel influenced did you? some people often say that they feel I influenced them somehow. Now the thing is, it isnt in the left/right, or in the other hand, no, its really under your watch strap, look".
- the spectator looks and, sure enough, the coin is under their watch -

what do you think?

 

[Morgan B]

Blah,

If you ask someone what hand the coin is in...I think you will be shocked with the answer. Here is an experiment - REALLY put it in your hand - you will STILL be shocked by the answer.

That presentation - without even looking at the methological issues - is very disconnected and challenging. I am not sure you get it yet, but I appreciate you trying.

Think about what would make someone feel GOOD - or - RELATE to the effect. Rather than turning it into a "GUESS WHAT HAND IT IS IN" game of futility - the only good thing...at least you are being honest about playing "Guess what hand it is in", rather than thinking you are doing magic and they are still playing the guessing game. (The last sentence was sarcasm and a back handed comment - just in case you couldn't figure it out - but it is no slap to your face, just coin magic)

This is what I think - it was an attempt though - keep trying, but put more thought into it...really be hard on yourself, so I don't have to be.

Cheers

 

[blahblah]

yeah, its pretty hard, ill try and think of something else.
im think of using an effect like free flight or twilight, but im not sure.

ill post if I think of something worth posting

 

[Cedric Taylor]

I want say it sucks, its difficult if the right amount of practice and precision is not put into it. A simple ordinary joe can make a regular age old coin vanish look really beautiful. Its all in the hands and skill of the artist....

 

[Morgan B]

Even with pratice and the smoothest of techniques, there are issues - please read the very first post Cedric.

Thanks.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

Not even a story. Just something to involve them. Convince them they're more than just a bucket for the words you're vomiting.

I just made this my sig. Best thing I've heard thus far.

 

[Steerpike]

I'm becoming rather quotable. It occurs to me that I could make a killing as a script consultant for magicians.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

I'm becoming rather quotable. It occurs to me that I could make a killing as a script consultant for magicians.

Actually you could. BlahBlah twilight is a perfect example of a routine that could have an emotional hook dependant upon the point your trying to make. Why does the coin multiply? Doesn't make sense unless the story of practicallity does. Nevermind the fact you carry a 4 inch by 2 inch mirror in your pocket but for a close up setting then the audience is already prepared for magic to happen when they see the mirror. So where do we go from there?

I wonder after reading what seemed like infinity the threads posted here if Morgician can emulate a story that makes since with twilight and at the same time fool or pursae. Anyhow I think this could be a perfect effect to start a foundation from to find the answers where looking for. I have to say this thread has changed my views on coin magic for good. What I have taken from this is more valuable than going out and buying crap. (no pun intended)

So what's next? Do you tell the audience whats to happen before it happens but it happens through coincidence of something magical?

 

[Morgan B]

Hi Shane,

Nice to see you back in the thread.

I actually don't agree that Twilight is a perfect example of a routine - I do agree that it has a tonne of potential for an emotional hook, however, it is not practical for many working conditions because you need a close up mat or something soft on the table. Outside of that - most of the handling is "natural" and the mirror can be reasoned.

I can't see myself spending the time scripting this routine - as I would never use it...ever.

If we can come up with a routine that satisfies all the issues that were presented in my first post, I would love to approach it. That being said - I will spit something out - with little thought - that might be considered connected and meaningful...depending on your approach.

Depending on your character, much could be said about this affect. I don't see Twilight as a finished effect either, I see it as an ending or segway effect. So, let's say you were doing another coin routine where the money reflected a life message.

Money is a large part of our lives, a Sociological Theorist once wrote about the power of money by stating, "Life would be easier once people realized that our lives boil down to a dollar value", it is hard to think of a part of your life that you value, where money and life don't intersect - many a men have sold their soul to obtain their dreams. (Places coin on close up mat)

(pulls out mirror) Mirrors are said to be a reflection of this soul, and they were often used in traditional witchcraft as tools for scrying or performing other spells. It is also said that mirrors cannot lie. They can show only the truth, so it is a very bad omen indeed to see something in a mirror which should not be there. However, how can you see something that sgould not be there, for we just see a reflection, or is that to say when something is reflected...it is more than just a reflection...it is a tanglible representation of what exists.

The rest should be self explanitory. Again, this may be too "deep" for some, I am not even sure it matches my character. The point is this - it gives the effect TRUE meaning and TRUE logic. I am sure I could come up with something better...however, like I said - won't be doing the effect - so I won't spend much time on it.

Shane - can you think of a coin effect that meets the criteria - it may be hard, because "method looking moves" will come into play - but I am willing to look past that...

well - 5 am - hope this all makes sense tomorrow.

Peace

 

[SHANE BLACK]

I will ponder on this today and I will get back with you this evening and see if I can atleast take a shot at bringing some light to the topic. The example you gave is exactly the response I expected from you and what I wanted to hear. Even though it wasn't your style the example you gave can shed some light here on exactly what message your trying to convey. Good work!

 

[Morgan B]

Thanks Shane - I am glad you approve and understand - I look forward to your addition.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

K here's my thoughts. With the limitations on coin magic and coin mechanics the coins can only travel to so many places for so many reasons. This is a difficult question but I'll take a shot at it since that's my job and as a great learning piece.

You can almost go round and round with this question looking for answers that you will only half filled notations and with more doubt in your purpose as a coin magician. In order to be great at magic especially coin magic you have to have purpose to a degree in what your doing for it make since I mean having a saw thru finger illusion at a bar doesn't make any since and kills the mystery quickly. Having said that; with practicallity and with a good story base then it's possibly to reach a level mystery that's beyond understanding. When my friend Bizarro pulls a jumbo coin and taps it hardly on the table assuring it's solid and peels off it's cover to expose a chocolate coin, bites it, then restores it that can meet the criteria of mystery without patter and yet have your audience still talking about it.

One on one routining is more difficult to reach this degree since it's not based on illusion it's more personal and has to be handled with careful considerence. Lets think about it for a bit. Lets say I want to perform a coins thru table routine how do I reach my audience in a lasting manner and connect in way thats magicical?

A story about the quality of metals and fibers can be expected for a routine like this and the audience probably already expects it to be a trick. But with presentation with less words and more emphasis just watch and see what happens leaves the mind guessing and wondering why and how it happened. I think with a routine like this you can almost talk yourself out of magic and more like science. With magical handling, timing, and a ellusive dimeanor I thinks it's possible to get the response you want. Some effects I do I use no patter while I'm actually executing the effect that works for me it might not work for everyone else.

Now if I was to use a copper and silver routine I could base this with a story and get a mystery from it. "You've seen one of these before? This coins about forty years in the making and I use this coin for a reason. I used to use a larger US half dollar and quarter but after some time I realized the sheen of silver is too hard to decipher the difference and my audience just thought I was on Prozac and little confused. So I now use this copper coin cause it's old, smells funny and leaves a funny residue on my hands, no that's not why I really use it it's obvious you can tell the difference between this and silver. I can shine it up and strangely it polishes to silver. Look. Now the other side is still copper and mix copper with nickel you have what? No I wasn't a A student in Chemistry but pretty sure you still have a copper and nickel coin. But there wouldn't be any explaination for it now being Silver unless my hands are clearly empty as they are now and look it still changes. Magic is that feeling in your gut that can't be explained then let me try it again".

I just winged this patter since copper and silver is not one of routines anymore I just figured it's a great example of a routine that is a difficult one to explain and still reach the outcome we want. So did I leave a lasting impression of mystery and magic but have purpose there probably not but that spectator will go home tonight and wonder man I saw his hands empty, I inspected the coin how does it happen? I run into this guy a few weeks later and guess what, he ask's me to perform that thing with the coin and can I please tell him the secret and I respond sorry buddy I don't even know the secret. Sorry about rambling there I think I started brainstorming there a bit.

Shane

 

[Morgan B]

My three concerns:

Your presentation may be overly "heady" for people to follow - and - is what you say the truth - lastly - will people care enough about "science" to see the magic. Wrapping up - we must be careful with what we say, as people see what you do as magic, not science, so depending on your character, this could be hard. I couldn't pull it off, as I like to be more authentic with what I say and do.

Like Emily Dickonson said, "Tell the truth, but tell it slant".

I think we must be careful to tell the truth, with little white lies, rather than white lies with little truth. If you claim it is science, and it is magic - where is the line.

Honestly Shane - and I am sorry - I found the presentation a bit confusing, and I don't see how it connected. It seemed like a story to make your magic make sense, rather than making sense of something using magic to illustrate it.

I hope you understand what I am saying - a noble attempt, and I appreciate your time on the subject.

I did like your analysis of how to present it. Think about the emotional hook of magic - I once had a guy do a fork bend, and he did it VERY seriously - I found this awkward, as he really wanted people to believe he could "bend metal" - the audience just sees bad acting with average magic.

I worry this is the way of coins - can we really connect and give meaning to money - yes - but only knowing what people see with money. Greed, fear, freedom, etc - through these concepts we can find something we want to say - then use magic to illustrate it. However, doing it the other way around is the way we are trying - find the effect, then give it meaning.

This is hard - as most coin magic only had the display of the effect in mind, and usually, the effect is very direct - although not so with method.

I think people can enjoy coin magic - if they have the right mind frame - I just think it is hard to win a crowd over with coins, because of its inherent limitations.

What if we came up with a presentation - then try to match it with a coin effect? May be interesting.

Cheers.