You are not an artist!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Steerpike, Jan 1, 2009.

  1. You just don't get it steerpike do you? You do know that just because a Novice artists has not Mastered the art, does not make him any less of an aritist. You don't need to master an art before you can be called an arist.

    You really need to do some research on what art and artistry is before you tell people they are not an artist.

    What you're saying is like telling a bowler he's not a bowler because he hasn't bowled a perfect 300
  2. As I said before, this thread is a kick in the nuts to a lot of egos out there:rolleyes:
  3. The way I see art, it's about how it makes others feel. How strongly you can express your emotions. Nobody can tell this for themselves, they need others to say it. Who bar a walking ego would say 'I'm an artist and I'm going to prove it!' If it's about expressing yourself, you need to wait for somebody else to say 'this is a work of art'. Which is why I'm here, saying that I have seen art on this site. Do you want me to name any names or dig out videos?
  4. After reading over that paragraph a few times, it strikes me as odd that you'd miss the entire point the poster was making. It wasn't about money--it's about displaying your art for others to see (whether that be magic, pictures, or film) and how that has little effect on whether or not what you're doing is considered art.

    I think that oversight (or ignorance, whichever) says a little bit more about you than the post says about "our" collective values (I also find it funny that you assume this poster was speaking for everybody. Obviously everyone can only speak for themselves). :)

    But anyway, I could really care less what people call themselves. What's important is that you perform well (I don't just mean technically, either--how you present yourself is paramount), that you are having fun, and more than anything that your audience is having a good time. I personally don't care for the title of "performer" or "artist" or any of that jazz...I prefer the title "Jedi"--I'll let you ponder about why, if you so choose to (or not; it doesn't effect me at all). :)
  5. That may be nice for feel-good platitudes. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a line separating art from non-art. You can either immerse yourself in the culture of the art world and create something worth creating, or you can stick your head in the sand and make up a title for yourself because you feel like it.

    And if you choose the latter strategy, keep in mind that proclaiming yourself an artist is a very minor accomplishment next to my superhero work with the League of True Metal Warriors.

    Somebody buy this man a case of Bass Ale and a box of steaks. I like this guy!

    I never said anything about mastery either. You need to calm down and stop projecting.

    I really wish you could have heard the cackle I just let out after reading that.

    No, I would like these people to speak up personally.

    Art does not speak for itself. The artist has to speak for himself.

    Making a living was brought up repeatedly. Making a living involves making money. I rest my case.

  6. Hey Steerpike,

    First and foremost... I missed you immensely. I just have no idea who you are.

    Regardless, I'm guessng I'll be one of many who are going to disagree (wholeheartedly) with what you had to say. In my own argument and views, I'll try to be as concrete as I can, but if you already have your mind set on your opinion, then there's no point in trying to"prove" things otherwise. So ultimately, I'm just sharing for the sake of sharing with others here.

    For the sake of efficiency, I actually Googled the definition of art:

    Based upon the definitions above, I don't really think you can debate that the performance of magic is an art. Magic is filled with unique thinkers who create their own material. A solid effect that can leave an impact on an audience is a beautiful thing, and when done correctly-- is emotionally important as well. And the magic and flourishes we use in the craft are obviously studied, practiced, and observed tools in order to accomplish a skill that not many others can exhibit.

    After re-reading your views of what (isn't) art, I would imagine you don't feel artists exist at all. Granted, I understand (and fully agree) that magic is disproportionately full of hacks than actual artists, but then again-- so is any other recognized art as well. Famous painters are forged. Timeless songs are stolen. Distinguished playwrights are spunoff. And directors' and actors' work in movies are often corrupted by Hollywood mainstream. Underneath the mess, though, there always remains the minority of people and works that do hold substantial meaning and appreciation. There will always be a minority that can genuinely show a refreshing angle of creativity and inspire a touching emotional response in a spectator. And because of that-- I'll argue that the field remains an art and that artists still exist.

    Now I have to ask...

    Who are you to come on to a public discussion forum just to defame anyone and everyone who reads your work without ever seeing what they have to offer? I understand where your angle is coming from-- and I can have some slim respect for that-- but your all-knowing and judgmental tone comes off as rash and immature, especially when it has no knowledge or bearing on what its readers are actually doing and performing in the craft.


  7. But they won't, because they won't say that their work has that effect on people until somebody tells them that. Even then, being the one to say 'I think I'm good enough to be classed as an artist' is very difficult. Therefore they won't.
  8. #28 KevinOwens, Jan 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2009
    Hmm... Interesting topic here.

    Of course, you are going to get the "You're Wrong" attitude from the "newest, hottest sleight" junkies, and you're going to get the "Absolutely" attitude from the people who really do study magic as an art. You're also going to get a certain attitude from those people who have developed a hate for you lately ;)

    I don't think anyone can actually call themselves an artist until they do a few things. Whether that art be painting, music, magic, etc.

    By contributing to an art, that does not necessarily make you an artist. Take a garage band for instance. They may study music seriously, they may be amazing at their instruments, but are they artists? Their guitarist may be able to shred and their drummer might be fantastic. But the music they play just sounds awful. How is that different from your average sleight junkie. "OMG look I mastered the clipshift!!!!!" Then a link to a decent performance of the clipshift with a webcam. Okay, maybe you can master sleights, just like a guitarist can master certain riffs, but that doesn't make them great magicians, it doesn't make them an artist.

    I do not consider myself an artist. Sure, I like to perform at parties, I like to amaze my friends, and I study the essentials, but I don't come close to the true magic artists out there. I contribute to the art, but I am not an artist.

    So much more needs to be done to be considered an artist.

    Most of us here are the every day garage band. The truth is, very few garage bands have what it takes to make it and be considered an artist in the music world.

  9. "Quote:
    Originally Posted by TeeDee
    Juggling can be an art. Magic can be an art. Painting can be an art. However, they aren't automatically art. People use the term "arts" for these things because that's what they're intended to be. If someone throws a ball in the air and catches it, that's not art. If someone shows you their pass or their Jackson 5, that's not art. If someone puts some paint on some canvas, that's not art. All of these things can be components of an artistic creation, but they don't constitute art by themselves.

    Somebody buy this man a case of Bass Ale and a box of steaks. I like this guy!"

    Juggling actually is automatically an art. It's the performance of skill for an audience. Performance of skill for an audience is a performing art. Paint on canvas, is art, no matter how abstract it is.

    Go look up art in the dictionary, please, for the love of God. Just because you have an idea about what art should be, don't declare it as fact of what art is. You're trying to redefine what art is. There is a certain definition of art, no matter how much you want that definition to align to with your exact beliefs, it just can't be done. You're trying to set specific criteria to call something an art, and you just can't do that.
  10. I personally think that it's cute how steerpike thinks that he is above everyone else. How we are all merely deficient in our self awareness. I believe that I make my own thoughts and don't leave them in the hands of others. To merely shoot down other people's thoughts because they disagree with you is wrong. I am not here to argue with the argument presented, I am merely present to ask the question:

    Steerpike, who do you think you are?

  11. First let me say that accusing everyone on this site of not being an artist is absurd and rude. But I am sure you were perfectly aware of that when you wrote this.
    Art is completely dependant upon the audience. When that five year old fingerpaints a picture of his family together, no stranger would regard it as a master piece, but you can bet his parents are elated and that baby's going on the fridge as a soon as possible. The same is true with magic. There are those out there who are absolutely apalled by the idea of being astonished. They view even the best magicians, like David Blaine, simply as a silly man with a deck of cards and to much time on his hands. But when you see the reactions David gets on his shows you know his spectators will carry this experience with them for the rest of their life. To them the workings of David Blaine are the equivalent of any great painter or musician.
    As for your statement that here is no quality control I have news for you. If every magician out there was equally brilliant at what they do, then there wouldn't be any reason to celebrate great people like Paul Harris, Dai Vernon, or even Wayne Houchin. These great magicians wouldn't be considered great anymore if everyone out there had equal talent. They would just be another magician. What makes the work of Beethoven or Picassoso so enthralling is the fact there are bad paintings and music out there. The fact there is bad alows us to appreciate the good. When you step outside and say what a beutiful day it is, you can only do so because you know that there are days where you have walked out and it was 20 bellow with ice all over the roads and all you wanted to do was go back inside. Magic is no different from any other art. After seeing the 21 card trick for the 50th time, seeing someone make your card appear in your pocket is a surprising and delightful change. There are magicians out there who don't have as much talent. A group of which i am sure you are a poster child. But it's people like this who alow the greats to truly shine. And these peole are certainly artists, they practice they same artform, they are just still searching for that spark that will allow them to truly give an astounding performance and really connect with their audience. Everyone has to learn sometime. Beethoven certainly didn't start with flawless piano skills and David Blaine didn't start doing perfect passes the first time he picked up a deck of cards.
    And heck if we didn't have people like you posting these rediculous ideas, we wouldn't be able to get passionate about them.
  12. [​IMG] <--- Steerpike

    How dare you say I'm not an artist.

    - Sean
  13. Oh, magic is an art. I just don't believe everyone who does card tricks is an artist.

    You can imagine a lot of things about me. Not all of them are going to be right.

    Hence my desire to find them.

    To roughly quote a humorist I particularly like, [art] is all for naught if it isn't surrounded by self-important bearded tossers who read too much into things for a living. Self-important bearded tosser who reads too much into things is pretty much the sum total of my personality, so for the being I'll just roll with it.
  14. I lol'd. The paragraph you quoted was not about money or making a living. It was mentioned, yes, but if you're only getting a theme of money from it then you're obviously just being ignorant. I'll requote it so you can re-read it:

    Making a living, and thus money, was mentioned, yes. But if that's all you're getting from what was said...well, I guess I can't really help you (funny, because I can see the message you're trying to send not getting through to the non-artists and artists you're talking to, as well). :)
  15. See, with this mentality, I don't understand how you can call anyone an artist all. What separates artists from wannabes? Surely, I hope it isn't superficial fame... I would argue that garage bands are artists, especially if they create their own material and view every performance as a learning experience. They're sharing a message with every performance and if people respond well to their work, regardless of the size of their audience or fanbase, what exactly is holding them back from artist stature?

    I'll bite the bullet. I want to see where this is going. I study magic everyday. I have some diverse experience in the craft and I respect it very much. I perform for free and for money. I try to make each performance a new product of the art. I consider myself an artist. Now what?

  16. Steerpickles last post kinda reminded me of myself when I had to make a speech in front of my English class a few years ago, which I had not prepared for. I quickly ran out of things to say, so I just kinda rambled on very repetitively, hoping to distract everyone from the truth that I had no idea what I was talking about. :rolleyes:
  17. Romeo Sierra couldn't be more right.

    Actually KevinOwnes, it does make them artists, no matter how crappy they may be. They may not be a great artist, but they are an artist none-the-less.

    Like I said before, there is a difference between a Novice and a Master. Being a novice doesn't make you any less of an artist, and how famous you are doesn't make you more or less of an artist.
  18. Welcome back Steerpike. I hoped you would show up after the new year. I guess you went through with what you said you would. ;)

    Anyway, I agree with Steerpike on this one. Its similar to my argument on what a magician is. I don't consider myself a magician and I don't consider 98% of the people on this forum a magician. It is my GOAL to become a magician. What is my definition of a magician? I think I might have typed that up a long time ago as an essay on here, if not... that's for another day.:rolleyes: Anyway, I do agree with you Steerpike. Doing a few card tricks is not being an artist. It takes hard work and dedication for years to become a magician or artist in my eyes.

    In the past on here, I've seen people say things such as "One become an artist when he or she chooses to be." As in... just by starting magic, I would be a magician. I disagree with this type of thinking. That makes magic as a whole look like a joke or any art form to look like a joke. It takes that push forward and several years of hard practice to truly become an artist.

    Those are just my views anyway... Welcome back Steerpike.

  19. Real artists are probably busy not caring whether or people will let them be called an artist or not. Real artists don't have to prove that what they do has meaning, because with a great work of art, it's obvious - even if you can't reach out and say, "My, why a beautiful art-thing", it's still got you thinking. It's got you enraptured. You know it's something more.

    A real artist uses some sort of medium to express something, to convey a message. Someone confident enough to know that what they do is emotionally involving, beautiful in a way aesthetics can't label, and culturally relevant probably does not care what he or she's called - instead, they care what you think of what they do.

    In a social collective sense, art is put out there to be viewed, experienced. Your personal title is absolutely meaningless in this regard. Does a gourmet chef care if you call him a chef or not? Or does he await your impression of his food?

    You can all yourself whatever you want, but without the substance to back it up, it's just a pretentious title. The fact that so many people are coming out just to defend their ownership of a title says a lot. If you're really an artist, you have the substance to back it up - so instead of debating, link us to some of your art. Let other people call you an artist - THAT'S how you know. Coming up with your own label just seems self-indulgent, really.
  20. It sounded like you just contradicted yourself slightly. There are differnt levels of artists. Being a novice does make you less of an artist but you are right when you say they are artists none the less.

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